S7E86: Trevor Williams / Farm Traveler - Exploring the Cutting-Edge of Agriculture & the Future of Food

[0:00:00] Harry Duran: So trevor Williams, host of the Farm traveler Podcast, thank you for joining me on the vertical farming podcast.

[0:00:05] Trevor Williams: Harry, thanks for having me, man. Excited to chat with you. I always love chatting with a fellow podcaster.

[0:00:10] Harry Duran: Yeah. So this is met on several fronts because I started my podcasting journey in 2014 with my first show, Podcast chunkies, where I interview other podcasters and then vertical farming podcast in 2020. So now I'm coming back full circle because I'm now interviewing another podcaster about vertical farming on the vertical farming podcast.

[0:00:32] Trevor Williams: Super meta. A podcast about a podcast on a podcast.

[0:00:35] Harry Duran: Yeah. Well, what I love and what was interesting for me with that first show was I didn't really plan it that way. But when you're interviewing other podcasters, they generally tend to have good gear and good sound. That's helpful.

[0:00:48] Trevor Williams: Yeah, that's the best part. I mean, they've got good microphones headphones. They know the best practices. Like, I need a mute notifications on my computer, have a good microphone, have a good web camera. So, yeah, it takes a little bit of that pressure off. A little bit.

[0:01:02] Harry Duran: Yeah. And so I'm always excited to have these types of conversations. I know the main focus of this show has been my journey in learning about vertical farming. Everything cea, and it's been fascinating. And I've been now as we were just chatting in the green room, so to speak, about some of the inperson conferences that I'm excited about that I've been to. I went to Indoor agcon, indoor AG Tech nyc and got to agra Me in Dubai, courtesy of my current sponsor cultivated, who flew me out there in October. So that was a great experience. But it's just so interesting now to learn more and the industry is so exciting. I love having the opportunity to do something a little bit different than we normally do on this show and get your take on really, I want to hear about your experience and how you got into farming. So as far back as you want to rewind the clock, maybe start with where you grew up and where's home now.

[0:02:00] Trevor Williams: Oh, man, that's like one of the psychologists questions. It all started when I was born. I'm from Florida, lived in Florida my whole life, grew up in a little town called Bluntstown, which is we literally have two stoplights. But my first foray into agriculture farming, my grandpa, who lived right behind our house growing up, he had a catfish farm. And so every couple of weekends, they would sand the ponds, get the catfish, and they also raised like hybrid bass. And so that was kind of like my first foray into agriculture. And then I was super active in Future Farmers of America in high school, state officer here in Florida. And then I got an AG education degree from the University of Florida. I taught for two years, had some fun. I taught in daytona Beach, Florida, and actually, the high school was like 2 miles from the daytona 500, which was always kind of cool. It would be a little bit hectic about twice a year, but did that, decided on a career chain, started doing software development. And then I kind of missed being an active part in agriculture. And my wife was like, hey, you should start a blog. And so I started the the Farm traveler blog in, like, 2017.

[0:03:09] Harry Duran: Okay.

[0:03:09] Trevor Williams: And then that was about the time podcast started booming. So I was like, hey, let me start a podcast. So started it and I think 2018 or 2019? I think it was 2019. And I've interviewed farmers, ranchers, entrepreneurs, all throughout farming, agriculture. I just love learning more about AG and kind of showcasing people that it's a lot more than cow thousand plows. There's so much technology, there's so many disciplines involved in it that when you show people, they're like, holy cow, I didn't know that. This industry is so evolved. And that's something I love learning about. cea vertical farming has been booming for the past couple of years, and you show people all the technology that's happening, that's developing right now, it blows their mind. They're like, hold up, there are all these rooftop gardens in New York, Chicago, Dubai, that are saving countless transportation miles or carbon emissions from transporting all the goods. So I think it's cool, and I can't wait to see kind of where it goes in the next five or ten years. I think it's going to be absolutely wild.

[0:04:10] Harry Duran: Yeah, it's really interesting as far as the journey for me, because the regular listeners will know that it started with a book called Abundance by Peter Diamondes that a client had given me, which talked about technology in the future. And then dixon Despami's book was mentioned, which obviously I got ordered right away. I got through in like a day because it was just a short book, but I was like, whoa. And he's still on my to do list. We did have a short email exchange. We have mutual acquaintances through some of the guests I've had on the show. So my goal for this year is to get him on because I feel like he's sort of like the godfather of vertical farming. Yeah, that's awesome. So that was interesting. Just a quick side note based on where you grew up, you said you grew up in daytona, so you've made it to that. You actually gone to see a daytona 500 event.

[0:05:00] Trevor Williams: I never did, unfortunately. So I grew up in bolts down. I moved down to daytona to teach. I was there like two or three years, but I unfortunately never went.

[0:05:08] Harry Duran: Okay.

[0:05:09] Trevor Williams: My apartment was honestly, like a mile away from the racetrack. And what was weird, I could barely hear it. I mean, I thought I would hear the racetrack and everybody the traffic was terrible, but I never actually heard the race. Like the races and everything, which was kind of interesting. But yeah, like 50, 50 weeks out of the year, totally normal. But those two weeks where you had the 500, like, another race later on the year, I think it was wild. Like, you couldn't go anywhere.

[0:05:37] Harry Duran: Yeah. From what I've heard, the sound inside that stadium, wherever it's held, is, like, deafening. It's supposed to be like one of those once in a lifetime experiences you think about just watching cars go on the track, but I think it's the whole thing being there, I think, is something to say. The other thing that I remember from college is that daytona was a popular spring break destination as well.

[0:06:01] Trevor Williams: Yeah, it was funny. So I live in panama City now, and it used to be like, the college spring break capital, and now it's kind of the family spring break in summer capital. But daytona was like the main hot spot, like, five or ten years ago. So yeah, I mean, the Florida beaches. Everybody loves the Florida beaches in the spring. I mean, for real.

[0:06:19] Harry Duran: So you talked about your original interest in farming because what you experienced with your grandfather and how you got started and then left and came back. And so what was it about what was happening in the world of farming that intrigued you to start to show? Because if you don't have any familiarity with podcasting or blogging, blogging is a little bit easier. Obviously, you can just start writing, but podcasting depending on when you started. Nowadays, there's a lot of these tutorials online. So what made you go down that path to start having these conversations with folks?

[0:06:58] Trevor Williams: Yeah, so before I actually started teaching, I really wanted to do this kind of micro thing and kind of travel around and actually learn from farmers ranchers and see what they're actually doing on a farm. But I didn't get a chance to do that. And so about the time that I started the podcast, I was like, well, why don't I learn from the experts? Why don't I see what a rancher in Texas is doing versus a rancher in Florida or montana or somewhere? And so I really just wanted to pick everybody's brains and see what they're doing, what works for them, what doesn't, because when it comes to consumers, they have a lot of thoughts about what actually goes on in the farm. And that's really what I wanted to gear the podcast towards educating consumers on what goes on in agriculture. But what I learned is that a lot of farmers wanted to listen to the podcast because they wanted to see what other farmers are doing. They wanted to share tips and tricks. They wanted to see what works in other operations. And so I really wanted to learn. And then I kind of had this mindset change throughout the podcast where I'm not trying to show everybody what I know about agriculture. Instead, I want to be a guide and just kind of learn alongside them and just kind of figure out, let's ask the questions to the experts and see what's real and see what's not. And so it's been really eye opening. I mean, I've learned a lot about vertical farming, a lot about organic farming, why a lot of producers actually do both organic and conventional, which is something that I was very unaware of and just kind of like especially the pandemic was huge because a lot of farmers pivoted to stay in business. And the ones that pivoted doing Direct to consumer models were really successful.

[0:08:43] Trevor Williams: And they've kept that up since the start of the pandemic years ago. And so I thought I would kind of learn most of it in the first year or so. Not a whole lot would change. But no two episodes are the same. No two farms are doing the same practices. So it's been a plethora of learning, which has been super fun, which I'm sure you've experienced as well, because you've covered a lot of episodes as well.

[0:09:06] Harry Duran: Yeah. And so when you think about your audience, have you, over the years of doing this show, come to put together a vision in your mind of who you're speaking to or maybe based on the feedback you've gotten either through your social newsletter or direct feedback about the content of the episodes.

[0:09:26] Trevor Williams: Okay, so this will get meta from podcaster to podcaster, but they always say, like, come up with an avatar for your listener. Yes, and I think it's about 40% consumers, 60% farmers and ranchers. That's kind of like a vague breakdown. I'm not sure about like, how many are male, female. I mean, I have that data for like Facebook and Instagram and stuff. But for the podcast audience, I'd say about 40% consumers, 60% farmers. And the consumers are wanting to find farmers that they can buy from, that they can buy Direct, whether it's within their state or they can order online. And farmers are wanting to learn, like, oh, maybe they want to do direct beef sales, but they don't know how to do it. Maybe they are a conventional grower, but they want to, you know, venture into organic and they want to figure out why to do that, what are the hoops and balances that are the hoops they have to jump through and all that good stuff. So I would say that's kind of like the breakdown of the listeners. When I started the show, I was really a lot more vague. Like, I was just like, oh, just people that want to learn about their food. But now I've kind of tried to focus it a little bit more on farmers that want to consumers and farmers that want to connect through Direct to consumer products or even agritourism. Like they can go on a farm and tour and see what's going on. But yeah, I'd say that's kind of like the ideal listener that we have.

[0:10:46] Trevor Williams: It's always changing, but at least for right now, in 2022 and 2023, that's who the listener is.

[0:10:51] Harry Duran: I think the agrotourism is interesting because I'm seeing that now on the vertical farming side, either through virtual tours, which I got to experience. igs intelligent constitutions had a booth, it was in indirect nyc, was chat with callum, who's on the team there, and he had to put on the VR. And so we went into their indoor space and it was a bit unnerving because you're thrown off like balance wise because you've got the VR set and you get on the platform and it sort of like lifts you into the small, like, internal elevator. But it's interesting because you can see, like, you can look around it's 360, so you get the experience of the Led lights and so it's as close as you can get without having to actually be in the site. And it's still one of the things two years in that I have on my list to go see some of these farms in person. I'm going to have to do like a road show or something like that. I do get a taste for some of it now that I'm going to the conferences. I was at agrame Dubai, and they've got some of the set up so you can get a feel. And that's a pretty big conference, so you get a feel for what's happening there. So have you had an experience where you've been able to actually connect with some of your previous guests or actually been to the farms as well?

[0:12:18] Trevor Williams: Yeah, so far we've done, I think, about three or four farm tours and I post them up on YouTube. And so far they've all been people that we've had on the show. Luckily, it was Lavaloha, which is a chocolate farm in Hawaii. Legacy Greens, which is a really good one that you might like to have on. They have a microgreens farm in tallahassee, Florida, and so theirs is really cool. Went there, toured them, kind of saw how they did it. Another one was cinderell Farms in mariana, Florida, and they're a dairy farm. So we went there, toured them, we toured the dairy farm as well as their ice cream creamery that they have. So they produce their own milk, they turn it in ice cream. And it's I mean, I'm a little bit biased, but their ice cream is phenomenal. They have like 2025 flavors and it was so good. But yeah, that's always super fun. But I've seen a lot of people online that have video tours that you can just go to their website and they have like a video post where you can just kind of follow along very quickly. Even some VR tours, which I think are always really cool. I wanted to talk about this because I think VR is super cool, but there was a study, I think like a year ago or something where I think it was in Russia or somewhere.

[0:13:26] Trevor Williams: They gave their dairy cows VR glasses and the happiness levels rose 20% in the cows or something like that. I don't know how they track that, but the VR environment that the cows were in was like an open field or something, which was really cool. And so I thought that VR is not only transforming humans, like how we do business or how we tour stuff, but it can also transform livestock. I think that's going to be really wild. So I thought that was cool. You mentioned VR wanted to bring that up. I thought that was kind of cool.

[0:13:56] Harry Duran: Yeah, well, we can go down one of those rabbit holes as well. But it's interesting, so many questions because I'm like you have to like create custom goggles for the cow.

[0:14:04] Trevor Williams: Yeah, exactly.

[0:14:05] Harry Duran: Yeah, I guess, I guess if you, you know, there's so many different ways to think about that, you know, both sides of the coin because you're like it's. It's it's sad that you have to fake them into thinking that they're actually living a happy life on Earth. bastard. But happy cows, less stressful meat. None of those hormones make it in there. My partner and I have gone, for the most part, pescetarian, but we've recently introduced meat from Hawaii of all places. You mentioned Hawaii. And there's a company called maui nui based on maui. And there's an overpopulation of deer, I forgot what kind of beer it is, but they've overrun like a part of the island. So now what they've done is they've set up like so they sell the venison from there. And what happens is these deer, they live like a full life and then they have marksman, like snipers basically on the premises. And so one shot down, so there's no being fed through a lot. And the stress and the hormones and all that sort of because they've demonstrated that those fear hormones make their way into the animal. And so it's really interesting. They dress the deer on site on the grounds and then they flash freeze them and then you can order a box of it.

[0:15:24] Harry Duran: It's not the cheapest, but it's an interesting way to get back into eating meat. And I'll tell you, normally when I've tried venice in the past, it's a bit gamey, but now this is almost like you really don't have to cook it. It's like medium rare at most medium. And it's absolutely delicious. So it's really kind of like opened my eyes to the possibilities and stuff like that. It's called maui nui and they've got a whole plan for how they're culling the population. And they sent this really they send you these newsletters every month about what's happening on the farm and what's happening really keep you updated. So it's one of those when you have that connection to the food you're eating, I think it's fascinating. Yeah, pretty interesting. For me.

[0:16:09] Trevor Williams: Yeah, that's something that I love, like connecting, whether it's just like, normal produce fruit or animal proteins, connecting to it is so cool. You can figure out, like, hey, I know the farmer that raised this cow. I can ask him phone call Instagram or whatever, just send him a message like, hey, how do you raise your animals? Can I do and see how you do it? It's so cool you're taking that anonymity out of it where you're not having to guess. You're not, well, I hope this was raised sustainably, regeneratively, whatever else it is. You can figure that out and you can support it, which I think is awesome. You can support great venison from Hawaii. I think that's awesome. I mean, I wish that more and more people would do that. I think that's phenomenal.

[0:16:51] Harry Duran: And then last comment on the VR for the listener. Move on to farming stuff. I recently just caved in, and my partner had first gotten the Oculus or metal VR. The oculus two. He had it for a bit and she's like, oh, you should get one. And I kind of like, poopooed it. And I was like, no, I don't want to get lost in that world. I've got enough connection with technology. But it's interesting. The fitness apps have been game changing. So there's one called fitxr, there's one called supernatural where you're out in the outdoors and what happens is you've got the goggles on and you've got the handsets, and it's their boxing games. I just did a workout this morning, I kid you not. If you do 10 minutes of boxing and uppercuts, like, everything, the whole they walk you through it and they can detect your motion through the motion sensors of the hand of the handles or whatever they call controllers. I'm telling Trevor, like, I'm sweating, and the next day I'm sore, like, in my pecs. And then they have stuff coming out.

[0:17:53] Harry Duran: You have to squat or move, and if you do that, this is the beginner ones. They have intermediate in advance.

[0:17:59] Trevor Williams: Oh, shoot.

[0:18:00] Harry Duran: Okay, I sound like a 15 or 18 minutes one. I'm sweating, sweating by the time I'm done, and I'm sore, like the next day because if you think about it, it's the movements and if you go all out, it really has changed my perspective on it. And it's just interesting how you could just do games where you're just sitting on your couch and just kind of like, mindlessly going through. There's a great tetris game, by the way, if you're an old school like me. Love tetris. There's a new version that's immersive that's amazing, with amazing music.

[0:18:30] Trevor Williams: Oh, that's cool. I bet that's trippy. But I bet that's really fun, though.

[0:18:33] Harry Duran: It is. You've got the Immersive sound, and it's like the first time you put them on and you look around and you're in a room and it's 360. It's really jarring. So it's just one of those things. I always want to be well versed first about technology that's happening. I'm going down like a chat gpt rabbit hole now, because I'm just like, whoa, AI. There's so many things that are happening, and I feel like if you don't keep up with it in five to ten years, it's just like technology that's happening. It's going to be in the way we normally do things. Like, we've mentioned vrs now in farms and stuff like that. So it's really interesting to see what's happening. And we'll get back now to the subject of farming.

[0:19:11] Trevor Williams: Yeah, no, I mean, that's crazy. I have a buddy that introduced me to some AI stuff and I wrote in a template like, oh, hey, tell me about some meat alternatives. And I wrote this very detailed paragraph and I was like, oh my gosh, this is much better than anything I could ever write. It's crazy to think about what it's going to be in a couple of years. I mean, it's already really good.

[0:19:31] Harry Duran: It's already pretty nuts.

[0:19:33] Trevor Williams: Yeah. A little dangerous, but good.

[0:19:35] Harry Duran: We'll see how it goes from a podcasting perspective and also from a writing perspective. I joined this cohort called Ship 30 for 30. It's run by a couple of guys who focus on digital writing. So writing for the Internet, writing for Twitter, and writing for blogs and stuff. So it's been a great experience. The challenge is to write what they call an atomic essay. 250 words every day for 30 days. Okay, I'm in day eleven today. So it's been interesting. Like, on top of everything else I've got on my plate, just churning out one of these a day and posting it across all my socials. So that's been a great experience to kind of work that writing muscle, which I think is something that's been helpful for me. I write a blog post, a newsletter, once a week, every Saturday. And so I think for this year, in terms of goals, just kind of getting better because I've always been podcasting, because I was like, hey, I'm better at talking than just writing. And now what I've come to realize is, like, now that I've, like, unfamiliar with podcasting, long form interviews, I've had over 310 of my first show closing in on 80 with this show. And so it's just a different skill set, you know, to learn.

[0:20:41] Harry Duran: And I like this idea of just always learning, just being the eternal student, I think has been fascinating and part of the reason why I started this show as well.

[0:20:50] Trevor Williams: Oh, yeah, I always think about it, like the different learning modalities, like auditory, visual, kinesthetic. Podcasting is great for any auditory learner, but if you have somebody that wants to learn via reading, like have a newsletter or something, I think it's a great way to address all of those different learning modalities. I do blog posts every now and then. Every time I write them, I'm like, man, I wish I would have paid more attention in English class. I wish I would have paid better attention on how to write better cohesive stories, essays and all that good stuff. But there's so many things out there like you're saying, like, that 30 for 30 challenge and YouTube videos and countless other things and courses and stuff that you can take. But yeah, it's always good practice. I mean, I feel like we can always learn how to tell better stories, whether that's podcasting or writing or whatever that is.

[0:21:39] Harry Duran: Yeah. And it's one of those skills that have just come around to realizing how important it is for your whole life, like the basis of being able to communicate effectively with people, even if for anyone who's listening, just being able. Whether you're in a nine to five or you're an entrepreneur, or just communicate ideas to your boss about why you should be getting a raise, or why you deserve the promotion, or communicating to an audience that you're trying to sell to a market to or communicating to your spouse all these things, It's interesting. And what I've seen is it serves as the basis for everything else I want to do. So I've been testing out, reading out the blog post on YouTube just for the camera. I just read it out and then I just do a quick edit. So now I just focus on creating that one piece of content every Saturday. And then I can generate tweets from there. A LinkedIn post, a medium post, a Twitter thread. A YouTube. If I wanted to do short videos like the ig reels, I just read out the tweet or I just read out the bullet points. It's been fascinating. And if you think about the stuff that's shared on Instagram, a lot of times it's quotes. Yeah, it's a visual platform where people are sharing writing. So it's really been interesting for me to kind of look at that aspect as well.

[0:22:50] Trevor Williams: Hey, I mean, all content is good content wherever it is. I mean, you're just putting that stuff on the internet, everybody can find you, especially for a podcast. It's weird marketing a podcast because you want to market it everywhere, but everybody's listening on podcasts. So you've got to have your marketing on podcast and guest on other podcasts, be on other podcasts and all that good stuff.

[0:23:09] Harry Duran: Good content is good. Yeah. I always remind folks on my show, on the other show, and even for the clients we work with through the agency, the best place to find a podcast listener is on another podcast. There's people who are listening to this right now and be like, oh, Farm traveler, I never heard it. And so I'll recommend that you pause right now, whatever app you're using to listen to this interview with Trevor and myself and look up Farm traveler on your favorite podcast app and then hopefully you'll get some new listeners as a result of that.

[0:23:39] Trevor Williams: Hey, perfect. That's a good segue, too. I like that I'm going to have to use that one day in the middle of an interview, like, hey, pause right now, go check out this guest and then come back.

[0:23:49] Harry Duran: What I love about this format and what I love about this specific episode is the beauty of podcasting is for me, it's conversational. I've always enjoyed it from the time I first started. I had my list of questions in the beginning when I first started, like every podcaster does. And then you quickly realize if they're just closed ended questions like what's your favorite book? Or what's your spirit animal? You ask those and then once you get through them, you're like, if you don't have any way to continue the conversation, you get a lot of dead air. And I just realized very quickly, it should always feel like the listener is there with us and they like, they've pulled up a bar stool and we're just having a conversation. And I'm just sitting there listening. And I always remind people there's three people in a podcast conversation. There's the host, there's the guest, and then there's the listener. And I always refer to it as listener. You listener, singular. Who's listening with Trevor? Myself now, because there's one person listening to your show at a time. I think when podcasts just first get started, they think that they're on stage and they're like, hey, everyone.

[0:24:50] Harry Duran: And it's not it's just really intimate medium. So if you had to think about looking back at you when you started the show and your objectives for why you started the podcast and think about now, present day, if you think about what's a couple of things. That come to mind. If you have to think about or identify some of the best things that have happened because of you starting the.

[0:25:17] Trevor Williams: Show, I would say kind of going off of what you were talking about, where podcasts are a good conversation. I think just some of the relationships that I've built because of podcasting, whether it's with different podcasters or guests that I've had on the show, I think that's been super fun, like just kind of making those connections. I mean, I've gotten a lot of free stuff from farmers like, hey, try our chickens. I got one of my past guests, he has an organic farm in California, and he sent us two organic chickens to try, like whole chickens. And I was like, this is so nice. Like, you did not have to do. Thank you so much. But I mean, just those just building those relationships where those people trust me to try something and to give like an honest opinion for it, I think is awesome. And I mean, even Jason meadows has another podcast out there in the AG world. It's called AG. State of mind. And his is all about kind of like the mental focus or dealing with the. Mental stress of being a farmer or rancher and different tools and stuff. I'm not a farmer rancher. But just listening to that, listening to those stories has been awesome.

[0:26:25] Trevor Williams: And connecting with him and just kind of talking. I've had him on the show. He's been on my show. And so honestly, I would say those relationships have been really phenomenal. And I would say kind of more so than as a podcast where download numbers are everything. But I really value those relationships and just kind of having those conversations with people. And I think that's really fun. And I try to tell that on the show, like, hey, this show is all about building relationships. I hope this show connects you with the farmer that you can relate with, that you can identify with, that you can talk to, that you can support. And so I think at the end of the day, that's really all that matters is just relationships with everybody. And I think that's been one of the really cool things that kind of has developed because of this show.

[0:27:13] Harry Duran: Yeah, I will wholeheartedly agree. I've been really happy to see how that experience has translated to the real world. The first conference last year was indoor icon in Las Vegas in February. And I was a bit anxious because I was like, I've just been having these virtual conversations. I'm very comfortable in the podcasting world, but in the indoor farming world, I was like, I got to see some of my guests, my previous guests in person, Caroline, we were talking about her. And it was just interesting to see how many folks just are relatable. And it was just fun to shake someone's hand and just engage with people. And so that sort of broke the ice. And it's interesting, this always happens with podcasting because they're like, oh, Harry, I love your show. I've been listening. Or they recognize someone mentioned that they recognize my voice, which it gets a bit weird sometimes when you're there. And I got to hang out with the folks from Net Led as well. And I was in the booth. I was talking to nico, the CEO. He had been on the show before, and someone who was on this team was standing next to me, and she's like, he turned over and she said, when you heard me talking, she's like, Harry, the podcast.

[0:28:26] Harry Duran: She's like, oh my God, because she heard me talking. And it was really interesting. So just for having follow up conversations and I had a great time. Indoor agtech. And I see so many people there. And then the great thing about it is I see all these new companies. And so I had a lot of follow up conversations already on the show from people that I've met there and then always eternally grateful to all the sponsors that have been on the show or that have supported the show. igs series, Greenhouse Solutions, great Farms, cultivated I think it's important as a podcaster to always recognize that they're really like the lifeblood. Like you said, that the farm that sent you those chickens. It's just like, always an opportunity because we have this platform to just really share the word about the people that we're coming up into contact with and that we're having great experiences with. I think that's helpful because it gives the listener sort of, like, educates them on what else is out there, who's doing good stuff and who should I be paying attention to.

[0:29:24] Trevor Williams: Yeah, it's so cool, and I love how focused podcasts can be and build, like, a huge audience. I mean, like your show, vertical farming, that's a huge industry that obviously a ton of people want to learn about. And I mean, it's so great that because podcast, you can really focus on that niche, you can really dive at it, and you can build a lot of relationships, have a huge audience, because a lot of people share. That same interest, that mutual interest of vertical farming, like what the industry is now, what it can be in five or ten years, different technology that different companies are offering. Yeah, I think it's huge. I think podcasts are awesome. We're a little bit biased here, but.

[0:30:00] Harry Duran: I think they're great. So when did CEA indoor farming come on your radar when you start becoming aware of what was happening in this space?

[0:30:08] Trevor Williams: So in college I had several plant science classes, and I took one where I really learned about hydroponics, and I thought it was super cool. I was like, wait, you can grow plants in the water? Like, this is really cool. And so I did a couple of experiments with that. And then when I eventually started teaching, we had a greenhouse, and it was like a small little greenhouse, but we had an ebb and flow hydroponic system that we raised with tilapia, and that was super cool. I was like, this is really neat. I love this sort of stuff. Let me look into it more. And so I started to learn more about the different vertical farming systems that are out there. I bought this really cool goldfish tank that has like a little you could grow like mint, cilantro and stuff like herbs, different herbs on top, and that was really cool. And then just to learn about all the different consumer systems that are being made and then slowly learning about different companies like gotham Greens, aero farms that were growing huge amounts of plants inside in huge urban areas. And so just learning more about that, I thought it was really cool. And then when I started teaching, it was right before kind of the Led shockwave, where it used to be these really big bright bulbs that were super expensive, and that's what we had at the school. And then when I started getting some home kits, LEDs were everywhere. And so that kind of transformed it.

[0:31:35] Trevor Williams: And I was like, oh my gosh, is everything changing with the CEA world? And then I started producing another podcast about a year and a half ago, but it didn't really get off the ground after like three episodes. But it was focused on all the different CEA companies out there, specifically for ones targeted towards space. And I thought that was super cool. All the different environments that are being created, like different habitats for the Moon, Mars, even the International Space Station, and then growing food in space, which I think is super cool. CEA is just growing food indoors, but it's so much more than that. Every company is doing it their own unique way. I thought about this when I was trying to think of some good talking points to bring up today, because a good podcaster is always a good podcast. Guest on a podcast. Companies like Aero Farms working with people like Bell Labs to develop drones that can fly around the indoor growing areas to monitor stuff. That's so cool. We always hear that technology is going to replace jobs, but now we have more jobs, like jobs to develop those drones, jobs to work the drones in the CEA environment. I think that's so cool. And so there's so much going on and I think really, it's just kind of scratching the surface.

[0:33:02] Harry Duran: Yeah, I think to that point, yes. It's interesting because we talked about AI earlier and a lot of people are when the first wave hits, creators are really like, feeling that. I think there's another tool called Mid Journey where you can create images and people are going crazy with that. So a lot of creators and designers are just like, well, so it's almost like, where do you find your place in this new world? Because it's not going to slow down, it's just going to get faster. Like writers now you're writing or a proofreader. Even Google is shaking in their boots with what open AI is doing with Chat gbt. Because, be honest, people are searching for stuff now in Chat gbt as opposed to Google. I literally have a tab open now in Chat gbt, and if I had a question about something, I'll ask it there. In the meantime, I'm going to have to edit this out because I'm about to sneeze there. You're good? Okay, give me not.

[0:34:01] Trevor Williams: An easy edit.

[0:34:03] Harry Duran: Yeah. Then you mentioned the drones and the cameras and the sensors to see I think what I heard recently was cameras to detect how quickly the plants are ripening. Specific strains of bugs and pests and diseases that you can detect visually or through a heat signature. And because the drones are getting smaller, they can operate in these small indoor farms. I saw something about using drones to help bees pollinate or having the pollination done through. It's so weird. It's getting pretty some of it a bit black. Mirror ish it's almost like a finger in the dike to think that there's not going to be some way in which AI is going to be touching. Obviously, farming, you've seen it with like, the satellite controlled farming gear, GPS controlled and all that sort of stuff. And it's so interesting to see and putting that to use for the benefit of what we're trying to solve. All the conversations I'm having and I'm sure you're having about these challenges we're having about feeding the world and access to local food and supply chain issues and food deserts and there's so many challenges that need to be addressed related to the future of food. And I keep saying it's an all hands on deck moment.

[0:35:36] Trevor Williams: Yeah, you think about the AI that's being developed for, like, self driving tractors or there's a bunch of companies which I think we've interviewed on the show, I can't remember, but they have AI where they're developing different traits for different plants and so they can grow in different environments. They can grow with I mean, they're not technically gmos, but we're figuring out better ways to develop them and grow them so they can grow without a certain number of resources, so they can grow quicker, faster, have more larger fruits, larger vegetables and stuff like that. And yeah, I think it's going to be interesting to see kind of where that happens. I mean, maybe we can develop some sort of AI where it takes into account every single farm, every single processing facility, and it maps out the perfect route, the perfect shipping route, where there's like so much less waste or something like that. I don't know. It's going to be going to be wild.

[0:36:29] Harry Duran: That is interesting. And I think it's just a limitation of the current models. I think Chat GP 3.5 has information that it's been fed up until 2021. I think that's the data set or something like that, but it's just a matter of time. And I've seen images of, like, what the Chat Four model is going to look like and it's exponentially, like, more data. And so to your point, I think, like, figuring out things like that, like how do we address like, the supply chain issues or what's the shortest path to getting food to people and how do we do that tracing so people feel more comfortable about where their food is grown. And I think there's a lot of challenges to be faced, but a lot of problems that can be solved. What has you excited about the farming industry in terms of how do you think about who you want to have conversations with? And obviously, as a podcaster, it's always nice when you can have a conversation with someone and look forward to it because it's a topic that's near and dear to your heart.

[0:37:25] Trevor Williams: Oh, yeah, I love learning about people that have gone the direct to consumer route because they're completely shaking up the industry. I mean, for example, instead of a rancher, just raising cattle and then sending it off to a feed yard, and then it gets processed and then sold, and then they get a little bit of money back. They are basically raising the cattle, and then they've got to find a local processing unit and then process it there. And then they can sell it, whether it's through a local business or they can sell it themselves. I mean, they're really shaking up the whole distribution model, the whole food supply chain, which I think is awesome, because when they do that, not only does the consumer get what I think is a better product, a more local product, a fresher product, the Farmer is also getting a little bit more money, which I Think is huge. I mean, obviously, it doesn't matter if you're in CEA or whatever kind of farm you have. Like, you're not getting super duper rich off of it by any means. And so if you can profit just a little bit more by going the direct to consumer route, I think that's great. And then you can also build those relationships, which I think are phenomenal. And so I've interviewed several people. boyd Farms is one that's here in North Florida, in South Georgia, and there it's an old state senator, Alan boyd. He's got a farm. And they started doing the direct to consumer, and they've kind of exploded in terms of popularity. And so I love learning from them just kind of why they did it, how they did it, because it seems that even all the direct to consumer businesses do it completely different. I've interviewed another one called rep Provisions, honest bison, Crowd, cow, a bunch of other ones that are doing it totally different, and they're doing their own spin on it, some offering wagu, some offering bison.

[0:39:10] Trevor Williams: I think that's always really cool. I think that's kind of the trend. I haven't really seen it in terms of produce, fruits, vegetables, stuff like that, but I'm assuming something like that can happen. When you look at states like Florida, for example, we grow a lot of cucumbers, squash, strawberries, watermelon. Maybe they can come together and have some sort of a co op when they're sending out their produce or subscription model or something like that, at least locally. So I think that'll be pretty cool.

[0:39:40] Harry Duran: Have you seen the conversation shift with the topic maybe of climate change and just how variations in the weather? This was something that was really eye opening for me when I went to Dubai. And we're in the middle of a desert. There's trees and palm trees and green plants throughout the city. But what's interesting is when you look at the base of the tree, there's like, hoses running everything. Everything needs to get irrigated. And then the next question is, like, where's this water coming from? Is it desalination plants? And obviously there's a ton of money out in the Middle East, specifically UAE. So there's no shortage of creative ways to come up with how to get this stuff working. But what's which is really interesting is just because it's such a I think they get 90% of their food imported in that region. And so that's the extreme case. But, you know, you know, I'm seeing it here in Minneapolis, just like, you know, we're where normally we get like below zero temperatures and we had a bit of a cold spell, but this week has been unseasonably warm. And so it's interesting as we think about all these different impacts to climate, I'm wondering, as farmers think about this, are they thinking more about CEA options or are they exploring those as well?

[0:41:05] Trevor Williams: Yeah, I've seen kind of both from the consumer and farmer perspective more focus on sustainability and regenerative AG. A lot of consumers are now asking like five or ten years ago, it was like, hey, is this organic or not? Now it's like, is this regeneratively raised or is this sustainable? A lot of farmers, again, kind of talking here in Florida, we've had a lot of hurricanes in the past couple of years. And some people are like, is that because of climate change or is that because of earth's natural processes? What are some steps that we can do to help mitigate that and to help control that? And so, I mean, there's a lot of things like water control. We've got to check on how much water we're using. I know a lot of that in terms of, for example, when we talk about livestock and beef, a lot of people are saying we need to switch to alternative proteins because beef is using a lot of water. And then a lot of experts say, well, like 90% of that water is because of rain water runoff. And so it's water that we wouldn't necessarily use. There is going to be a small percentage, like 1015 percent, but it just kind of varies. But I would say a lot of people are starting to recognize that more. And even again here in Florida. Our Florida Farm Bureau has a program called this Farm Cares.

[0:42:17] Trevor Williams: And you get recognition for doing all these environmental conscious practices like saving water, making sure the ecosystem to your farm is focused on the local ecosystem and making sure that you're not disturbing anything like wildlife, natural grasslands and stuff like that. And so I think this whole trend of sustainability is kind of going everywhere. It's kind of impacting the environment. And people are saying that CEA can help out traditional agriculture and traditional agriculture can help out CEA. Like, if you're in an urban area, I think CEA is going to be perfect to help get you those locally grown produce to help with offsetting carbon emissions from transportation and stuff like that. I think it's cool that more consumers and more farmers are slowly paying more and more attention to sustainability and regenerative and like, hey, we're having an impact on the environment. Let's try to mitigate it, let's try to fix it. Let's try to reduce the impact that we're having.

[0:43:16] Harry Duran: Yes. So as you think about this upcoming year and planning out the guests that you want to have on the show, the topics you want to cover, obviously with a title like Farm traveler, it's a broad range, so from a podcasting perspective, it's helpful to kind of think about your audience and which content people are resonating with. So have you given some thought to what the plan looks like for the rest of this year in terms of what would success look like for the show and what are some conversations you want to start having with folks?

[0:43:50] Trevor Williams: Yeah, I'm trying to plan out I want to do about at least quarterly, like more farm tours and post them up on YouTube and do short little reels and Facebook videos and stuff like that because I think that's super fun, like actually going there and being Farm traveler. I didn't touch on this, but Farm traveler, the name came from my favorite show on Travel Channel called booze traveler. And the host, Jack Maxwell would travel around the world, travel around different states here in the Us. And he would highlight local spirits, like local liquors and the story behind them and stuff like that, which I thought was cool. And I was like, I kind of want to do that, but for farming, for agriculture. And so I want to do more, like, at least quarterly farm tours, put those up on the podcast as well, and then really interview kind of more people, focus on agritourism and direct to consumer models and give people like, hey, if you want to go and tour here, here's what you can do. If you want to try their products, here's what their products are, and here's how you can order it. And you can get it in two or three days. Doesn't really matter where you are. And so I think that'll be huge. I'm trying to focus last year I wanted to focus on numbers. I was like, I want to hit X amount of downloads, X amount of followers. But this year I'm like not worrying about that. I'm going to focus on the content and focus on trying to serve the audience a little bit more. And so I think just kind of focusing more on the direct to consumer model agritourism and also some cool innovations that are being made in AG.

[0:45:17] Trevor Williams: Also kind of highlighting on that too.

[0:45:20] Harry Duran: Are there a couple that stand out for you?

[0:45:22] Trevor Williams: Oh, man. Like innovations or just gas innovations? Yeah, I'm a geek when it comes to space stuff. And so I really want to talk about satellite imaging. You probably remember I can't remember the name of them. I follow them. Oh, interstellar labs. That's the name of them, I believe. I want to interview somebody from Interstellar Labs and learn about how we're going to grow food on Mars, on the Moon. Because when it comes to I mean, shipping stuff to space is very, very expensive. And so if we're going to live on the moon, if we're going to live on Mars or the International Space Station for a while, we're going to have to grow our food and save a lot of that shipping weight. And so I think that'll be cool to kind of learn how hydroponics, how aeroponics are going to work in those environments. And so I want to interview somebody from there very soon. I think I have some contacts from industry labs. I'm going to try to like, hey, I want to chat with you guys, please.

[0:46:18] Trevor Williams: And so I think that'll be cool. I interviewed the daughter of the owner of White oaks pastures in Georgia, and they're huge. The guy that owns it, the dad, was on the Joe rogan podcast a couple of weeks ago, and that one was huge. He's very into regenerative farming, sustainability and all that stuff. And so I kind of want to have a repeat episode and maybe try to have him on the show and talk to him and eventually tore it because I looked it up. I'm only like 4 hours away from him, which I was very surprised. So I really want to go there and visit and tore him and actually see what's going on. So that's just kind of scratching the surface about maybe what 2023 can offer.

[0:46:56] Harry Duran: I had a great conversation with Nadu and hanayaka. He's the CEO of gaia, Australia, and they're working with NASA to kind of test out some farming in space. So I thought that was pretty fascinating.

[0:47:10] Trevor Williams: That's cool. Yeah. I really want to learn more about how that's going to go down. And I mean, even I'm sure there's companies out there, but I want to learn more about how we're going to raise fish, for example, because I think that's like the most efficient protein that we can grow, that's like animal based for £1 of seed you give a fish, it's going to put on £1 of body mass. And so obviously, we can ship little fish. I think that's going to weigh a little bit less than, like, shipping a big old cow. But, I mean, eventually we got to figure out how we can enjoy a state on Mars. So we got to figure that out, too.

[0:47:43] Harry Duran: There's that whole cellular agriculture movement as well, which is so funny because of the podcast from like, wow, you could literally start a show. And I think I even grabbed the domain. It might have expired by now, but cellular agriculture podcast because I was just like, this is fascinating. Every protein you can imagine has been grown now in a lab, like shrimp, obviously, fish, meat. So it's almost that interesting base. There's the actual protein from the animal. There's the plant based protein, which has kicked off its own wave of stuff, too, right? And then there's a cellular, so it's like the taste. And some of these I read the Future Food or Food hack newsletter, which is fascinating to see, all the funding going in from all these companies about, like, unami grade sushi that's grown in a lab. And it's got the same taste, same marbling, same everything, without the impact of overfishing. So we're living through some interesting times, I'll tell you that much. And so there's so much happening, and so it seems like we're both well poised to see what the future is going to look like in the world of farming. So it's really exciting times.

[0:48:55] Trevor Williams: Oh, yeah, it's definitely going to change. I mean, it'll be cool to kind of see where it goes. And I interviewed a guy, he's got a show called Future Food podcast, I think, and they talk about cellular agriculture and yeah, I think that's wild. It's tuna, it's fish, but it's not. But it is. But it is. I heard somebody say this, like, 1015 years ago, and they were, like, really on point. They're like, imagine in your kitchen, you know, you've got your stove, your microwave, you've got your fridge. And now I've got instapot air fryers everything. Well, imagine if you have a 3d printer in there that if you want a steak, you can print it. And it's going to be a legitimate steak.

[0:49:35] Harry Duran: It's going to be legitimate delicious.

[0:49:36] Trevor Williams: Oh, yeah. It's going to taste just like the real thing. I think it's crazy to say, but I think we're not too super far off from that. It's going to be wild.

[0:49:45] Harry Duran: And then you connect it to your Chat gbt instance, and you basically just give it a text instruction to be like, hey, can you please prepare dinner tonight? And I'd like some steak, cellular grown steak, medium well, with some farm, with some organic rice and some lake. And it's going to basically figure out what to do, where to go, what's the order, what's repair? It's the jetsons. But most of the jetson stuff, I think, has already happened.

[0:50:20] Trevor Williams: Yeah, I think that's a good comparison. It's the jetsons. I mean, we can essentially, maybe in the future, print, like, a full five star michelin dinner in your kitchen without leaving it. I think that'll be wild. It'll be cool. It'll be wild.

[0:50:35] Harry Duran: That seems like a good pausing point to let the listener digest. And obviously we can always pick this up in a future discussion, but I really appreciate you taking the time to reach out and connect. As a fellow podcast, I always entered to see what others are doing in this space. I'm grateful that we were able to share your story and then learn how you got into the space, which I always think is fascinating and inspiring. So I really thank you for coming on the show.

[0:51:03] Trevor Williams: Yeah, thanks for having me here. Always a pleasure chatting with another podcaster, and I love listening to your show, learning about all this going on in vertical farming. I think you're doing a great job. I mean, obviously, you're the best podcast in the industry.

[0:51:14] Harry Duran: Thank you.

[0:51:14] Trevor Williams: Yeah, great chatting with you.

[0:51:17] Harry Duran: Obviously, Farm traveler anywhere you listen to podcasts and make sure you do that anywhere else you want to send folks to connect with you in the show.

[0:51:24] Trevor Williams: Yeah, if they want to check out our website, it's just thefarmtraveler.com and of course, if you go on social media, I'm super active on Instagram and Facebook. Nothing else, really. But just look up Farm traveler and you'll find us there via our website, the Farmtraveller.com. It's got links for all that stuff.

[0:51:38] Harry Duran: Yes. And like Kenny good podcasters. I'll make sure that for the listener, all those links will be available in the show notes as well.

[0:51:44] Trevor Williams: Hey, perfect. Yeah. You got to make it as easy as possible for the listener.

[0:51:48] Harry Duran: Yeah. Thanks again for your time, Trevor. Really appreciate it.

[0:51:51] Trevor Williams: Thank you.