S11E149 Gretchen Schimelpfenig/Controlled Environment Agriculture - Building Resilient Solutions for Ces and the Importance of Sustainability

[00:00:00] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: So I saw you moderate a panel. I believe it was at

[00:00:05] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: Very glad to be here.

[00:00:06] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: And I was, interested in obviously, you know, like when folks are in this space and just meeting all the people that are, I. Indoor farming related or indoor farming adjacent and interested in, and obviously for the benefit of the viewer, we can see that you're definitely green friendly with your plants. Um and so I'm curious, uh, where's home for you?

[00:00:26] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: I live in Vermont. I live in a small town just outside of Burlington, and this collection of plants was accumulated over the past five years or so. I'm actually not originally a plant person, but, after starting to work in the CEA industry and. Getting holed up during the pandemic. Kind of combined into, why don't I see if I can grow stuff, you know?

[00:00:47] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: Yeah. So let's wind the clock back a little bit and then we'll make our way back to, the topic of this show. But when you were in university and you were thinking about what you wanted to be as you left, how close was that to where [00:01:00] you ended up now?

[00:01:01] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: Not terribly close. was always interested in high performance buildings. I wanted to be involved in sustainable design. You know. Net zero energy construction was a big thing when I was in college, and so I, I thought that I might end up being involved in the design or retrofit of buildings so that they can become more energy efficient. I didn't know that I would end up working with greenhouses and indoor farms. That was definitely an out of left field sort of thing that came at me sort of like when industries just change and it becomes an opportunity for you. So, I always was interested in energy and when energy and CEA combined, I found a real niche for myself.

[00:01:42] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: If you look back or if you ask your folks, you as a child, would they be surprised at where you end up now?

[00:01:47] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: Um I think that my family's full of scientists and engineers, so it was actually a little bit of, encouragement to enter the field of stem, of some sort. But the combination of buildings [00:02:00] with plants, I think that they would be surprised because growing up in DC I didn't have a plant collection like this. I didn't have an interest in FFA or wanna do farming or growing of any kind. You know, I was not aware of horticulture really as a place that I would find, things to do. So it's cool how it happened, but I do wonder if I had, like, visited the greenhouse at my university if I might have, you know, done something a little different.

[00:02:25] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: So talk about that early journey, like what was your first, you know, connection to, or how did you start to become aware of what was happening in the world of CEAI.

[00:02:39] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: different crops being grown under protection through cannabis specifically.

[00:02:43] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: Okay, ,

[00:02:43] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: you know, living in Vermont, I was working in buildings with people and I was the account manager for. The University of Vermont at the electric department. So I was there to help them with all their efficiency projects. And I remember visiting their greenhouse and talking about, [00:03:00] oh, this is a place where we could replace lighting. But it was at that time where like they didn't trust the LEDs yet and they hadn't gotten a pilot done. And so I sort of just like heard of that then I started hearing about how we were going to be legalizing cannabis as a state again, you know, trying to do that. And so I was like, oh, well if this happens, will we have, you know, impacts on our customers well, if they start to grow at home? And so that's where I started learning about horticultural lighting and I was like, wow, this is really high powered lighting. This is a place where I could actually have some sort of impact. And it's not that often that there's a new technology developed. You can have kind of a ride on the rocket ship. So to my boss's chagrin, got really interested in, you know, cannabis growing and made a website page for the electric department and, helped develop a grow light rebate program with our sister in efficiency utility. And so, I just kind of got really into that and that's when I decided to change jobs and actually work for a nonprofit full-time that was focused on [00:04:00] the cannabis industry first, And then eventually the whole CEA industry.

[00:04:05] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: And so what was that like? An aha moment for you as you started to work more closely with the cEA industry about the opportunities that existed there and all the different ways that the industry comes together? You know, especially as you start to see it as a global phenomenon.

[00:04:18] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: Absolutely. For me, I felt like there were all these things I'd learned about best practices for building design and best practices for operating. With a strategic energy management mindset that I was like, this can all be borrowed and used for this industry, and maybe they already know it, but maybe they don't. And so I found that as an aha moment. I had the ability to translate things from one industry to the next, and that I still see myself as a translator. And so yes, that's been a pleasure to continue to find ways to translate yet more stuff that. We can, adopt in the CEA industry. And then also I've learned so much about, I have plenty to learn about the CEA principles like horticulture and [00:05:00] plant science, and I'm constantly learning from them. So it's been really cool to be a student in that way.

[00:05:06] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: When did you start attending the conferences?

[00:05:09] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: I started going to MJ Biz Con probably in about 20 19.

[00:05:13] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: Okay.

[00:05:14] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: So that was my first industry conference. And then, started going to a lot of the other conferences during and after the pandemic as well. And so I know that they were probably a lot different before, but that was when I started.

[00:05:28] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: I've heard a lot of really good things from MJ Biz Con, and also Green Tech Amsterdam. So what was your experience, had you been to conferences of that size and of that nature, or, I'm always curious as people's first impressions when they enter those rooms.

[00:05:42] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: I mean, it's like a football field size conference, expo hall. And so I definitely was overwhelmed the first year. Nowadays it's like I'm almost, you know, like the kid who's gone to summer camp so many years in a row, you like they, oh, they've seen it all. Like, so it's definitely not as, overwhelming [00:06:00] anymore, but it's almost like summer camp in that you go and see your friends, like you see the people in the industry that you don't get to see except for at these shows. So, I think it's a great place to learn about what's new and what the trends are and what kind of year everybody's having. And like the educational presentations, I always. Get something outta the keynotes. I learned something that I can take home to inform our strategy. So I think there are a lot of shows right now and we've gotta pick and choose which ones to go to. But I think there, I'm really glad that's almost like we have the blessing of so many to choose from. So the industry's got lots of discussion happening.

[00:06:37] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: When did you realize that you wanted to maybe take a more prominent role in either like being participant on panels or putting together panels or just sort of having a voice in this space?

[00:06:48] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: Well, you know, as a woman in stem, I've always, Pushed to make more representation for women in any industry that I'm in. And so I try to lift other women in the industry up and try to connect with them. [00:07:00] And so I've always been inspired by other people who I've seen as keynotes before me, like you know, Dr. Greenhouse, like Nadia Sabe. And so folks like that, I'm like, okay, well we've gotta take up more space. And so I think I have something like a niche expertise to offer just like she does. And so, I'm a personality type. That's also open to speaking, obviously being on a podcast right now. But I think that, engineers struggle often to get the message out and so I see myself as a person who has the gift to get the message out and maybe be a type of person that maybe audiences aren't used to seeing and maybe feel more comfortable listening to or, you know, hearing from, 'cause there's a lot of the same type of person up on panels and I sometimes really find it refreshing when I. Can hear from some new perspectives, and I hope to be that new perspective for some people.

[00:07:49] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: Yeah, it's something that I was acutely aware of when I, got started with the show. I really wanted to sort of highlight more voices that were looked different and just, I've tried to make an effort, you know, to get more, [00:08:00] female voices in ca and I know our mutual friend Tato does a great job with the women in CEA as well. So she's a fan and a friend of the show. And then just also, you don't see, you know, I'm Latino myself, so I was just conscious to see if there's other. Ethnicities and people of color who are interested in this space and trying to highlight the work that they do. So you gotta look a little harder, for those. And I know Indoor Icon had a great panel about that, last year. So I think it's always, I think it's helpful because when people look at these panels. And they see the diversity, you know, whether it's young women looking at the panel or, you know, uh people of minority races that they can see themselves in that position. And they have you know, it's always about maybe someone to aspire to or someone that's like, you see that's doing something and they give you hope for moving in that direction, which I think is great.

[00:08:44] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. My organization through Cornell University, the Greenhouse Lighting and Systems Engineering Consortium Glaze, , this year we decided to launch a new initiative that has to do with. Driving and celebrating diversity in the CEA industry beyond, just [00:09:00] gender diversity. We had a panel at Indoor AgCon where we had, folks speaking about, you know, racial diversity, other types of, , you know, underrepresented or marginalized communities like, disabled folks or veterans or formerly incarcerated people. So, it's called Vivid Canopy. And we've been, holding events at industry conferences and there will be probably at least four, events next year that we did for this year. And the goal was to get those conversations going and also for the audience to see some different types of people. And like you said, maybe see themselves up there and maybe find a mentor, maybe find a new job, maybe see a, leadership position that they want to shoot for.

[00:09:42] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: Yeah. Did you get some of, your training and performing, from being a first violinist?

[00:09:47] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: I do think that like gets you to learn how to deal with stage fright and learn how to deal with, like, you're always going to prepare as much as you can, but some level of that preparedness will fall off [00:10:00] when you're here and the spotlight's on you. So yeah, I love playing violin and performing, so I think the willingness to public speak probably goes along with that hand in hand.

[00:10:10] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: I'm sure at some point that we start seeing the same folks at the conferences. We'll get the indoor AgCon Jam band going.

[00:10:15] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: We've joked about that before. You know, if I had the forethought to bring my violin to shows, I would probably be starting the band. Maybe 20, 25. I'll make a point of getting folks to know one of these shows. We're gonna do a band. Yeah.

[00:10:31] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: And so when you think about topics that you wanna put together for these panels, I know, suzanne at Indoor AgCon does a great job of this and the indoor Ag tech, the conferences aren't to sound similar after a while, so you gotta be really specific about which ones you're speaking about, but also indoor Ag Tech, which was recently in Chicago. And so I'm curious how you think about creating content for these panels. If you think you know about the audience in mind or about you're thinking specifically about the conference attendees.

[00:10:56] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: Well, I think that because shows have so much to [00:11:00] offer from networking to, education to business development, you have to really compete with all of that. To have some panel that's so compelling that someone's gonna carve out. An hour of their time at the show to come see you. And so I generally am trying to offer something that I feel like nobody else has, which in this recent timeframe has been data from real facilities that I'm studying in California through a research study that I'm, you know, currently funded by the California Electric Utilities to do. And it's anonymized data, so it's safe to be sharing, but we're actually finding some insights that are gonna be. Hopefully like groundbreaking for utilities across the country. And so that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to offer something that you can't get anywhere else. Maybe it's third party validated information. Maybe it's, a review of a case study that's manufacturer and grower produced, but needs, a perspective from someone like me to say, okay, we really do think it saved that much energy. For example, I think that a lot of discussion in the past shows that [00:12:00] I've gone to has shifted to unity economics. A lot of, you know, kind of truth hit the fan in recent years. And so that discussion has been good to hear and it's been for me, actually an opportunity to say, Hey, well, energy drives a lot of unit economics and your profitability. So Resilient farms, smart farms are. Opening their door to a third party engineer to help them with that. Or they're hiring people to do that in-house and they're taking that really seriously. So, for these panels, you know, just going and saying, oh, I'm gonna talk about sustainability. That's not enough. You know, you have to say, I'm actually producing some research, or I've got some insights from multiple researchers across a whole region that now are validating a pathway to high performance farms. Otherwise you're just selling your business and that, and people don't come to a panel to hear you do an advertisement. So.

[00:12:56] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: I think nowadays people can sniff those out and they know when it's like an infomercial. [00:13:00] It's.

[00:13:00] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: Yeah, and I think the conference producers do too, so they're being even more judicious about having some real discussions happen. You know, some real insights.

[00:13:10] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: From the study that you can tease out? Or is it more of a wait and see or, I'm just interested 'cause there's probably a lot of nuggets that people are gonna be looking forward to hearing.

[00:13:18] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: Yeah, so this study is happening in California. We do hope that a study similar to it will actually get funded to happen in Illinois as well soon. But the one happening in California is. About two thirds done. So we have some insights like preliminary findings. I shared those at the CE Ag conference in Raleigh, as well as, we'll continue to share insights at like indoor AgCon and others in the future in 2025 as we finish it up. But in our preliminary findings, we were encouraged to find that. A lot of growers that we visited are using integrated control systems if they're larger, if they're Dutch style greenhouses, if they're vertical farms producing a high value crop. [00:14:00] But that there's still a ton of opportunity with, a few different types of segments in the CEA industry to. Improve you know, the types of control systems that people are using. We uncovered, you know, that there's some growers, indoor farm growers that are still manually turning their lights on and off. We've, you know, uncovered that there's some folks using integrated control systems that have the capability of, for energy monitoring, but they don't actually look at the energy data. And so there's a lot of cool stuff coming out of that where we're telling the utility in this final report, we're gonna be telling the utility, Hey. There's these opportunities for you to move the needle here, create an incentive program, do educational programming, convince growers to adopt smarter controls by hopefully giving them some money to do it and really convincing them of the benefits. I think the biggest control strategy that I find exciting is stay lighting controls for greenhouses. it's not terribly pertinent to vertical farms unless they're incorporating the new sort of vertical greenhouse [00:15:00] approach where I think that's gonna be. A way that we start to see these hybrid facilities start to optimize is, let's turn this, you know, electric lighting off more and more and make use of the sun to save energy and get a good product. But without, you know, as much energy as the traditional vertical farm. I.

[00:15:18] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: The most because I have seen and heard lots of conversations about the hybrid approach and are you seeing anywhere where folks are having success with it or are there some good stories to tell?

[00:15:28] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: Yeah. You know, I'm friendly with Eden Green Technology in Texas, and, you know, recently they opened their doors to the Washington Post to explain how they're seeking to be resilient by using this model. And I think that I. With their expansion plans. Hopefully we'll see the rubber hit the road over the next few years of, does that model really scale? Is it working? It seems to be working for them in the regions they're already in. And another example, would be like vertical harvest in Wyoming and Maine. Their model is again to have a bit of sunlight being [00:16:00] used to compliment the carousels of vertical racks. And so I think that, with everything. Data over time will tell the story, but I think that we're seeing some success for those models because they're not having perhaps the higher outlay of some of the infrastructure needed for complete, you know, lighting year round. But it's also something that, it depends on how much you do, where you're located. I don't know, like maybe it'll work in certain regions but won't financially be as profitable in other places.

[00:16:33] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: Has been on the show a couple of times and really big fan of her work and her team for sure.

[00:16:37] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: Me too.

[00:16:38] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: Going on the topic of data, you know, one of the things that I've seen over the years of doing the show, and I've seen a change, you know, over the past couple of years, is this willingness to be a bit more open. But I'm curious about your thoughts about folks, unwillingness to share data or keep things close to the vest and how that's maybe impacting the possibilities for, you know, working together, [00:17:00] collaboration, or even just like shared information in a way that moves the industry forward.

[00:17:03] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: Yeah, I think that, over the past few years, working with the nonprofit that I supported as technical director, I managed a benchmarking platform that was designed initially for the cannabis industry and then was expanded. To be able to serve leafy greens and all other types of CEA crops in greenhouses and indoor farms. And, at the time that I was there, our goal was to benchmark, you know, dozens of facilities growing non-cannabis crops to create a report showcasing benchmarks for CEA funded by the USDA. And that report was actually released, this is Resource Innovation Institute's report, and it had 12 facilities in it. And I know that for a fact, they worked very hard to recruit many facilities and have a great value proposition. I think the product does produce informative key performance indicators. It's comparing you to yourself right now because they don't want to share, their own data with someone else, and there isn't enough in the pool to make an average that feels comfortable yet. But [00:18:00] I think that tells a little bit of a story at a national scale that people don't wanna share data voluntarily. Even if it's for the betterment of the industry or for themselves. Right. And then at the, state level, glaze has had a benchmarking project funded by nyserda, since 2020. And that project at the state level has, you know, certified engineers who come to the site and do an energy audit and benchmark the farm for them. It's not a software platform, but it's like. A higher level service that's free for them. And even at that program level, we've had double digits. I think, you know, less than 20 facilities go through the whole process, and that's over four years as well. So I think that shows that when you offer benchmarking for free, you still don't get of large volume of data. So my. Perspective for, you know, 20, 25 and beyond is that if you want growers to give data, you need to actually, potentially even [00:19:00] compensate them for the data itself. Yeah. You're giving

[00:19:02] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: An approach that.

[00:19:04] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: but you wanna use the data, let them see some benefit from that. You were saying something.

[00:19:10] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: No, I was just saying is that an approach that more people are, open to, because I think this idea of being compensated for participating is something that's new and it's actually an innovative thought and innovative approach because I think it'll help people, you know, feel like, their data is valued and their time is valued. And I think, I'm wondering if that'll actually help move the needle a little bit as well.

[00:19:28] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: It is not something that I would say is like. Broadly being applied right now. There are some research studies in the emerging technologies field that I, you know, do studies in. We have kind of inducement or incentive payments to get people to participate in the study. Perhaps encourage them to respond to a survey or to take an interview or to let us come to their site and visit it. I think it's sort of something similar that we need to, encourage folks to share data. On a recurring basis so we can see [00:20:00] trends. And so that to me would suggest that, okay, you essentially wanna subscribe to their data. Like, so then get maybe a benefit from, okay, I ingested your data, now here's a report, you get to use it, but I'm gonna use your data for all these research insights that I wanna get. Okay, well then we need to have a mutually beneficial relationship. Like maybe you should consider that their data is so uncommon to get that we need to start treating it like a valuable substance, like we treat other things that are uncommon to get.

[00:20:31] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: And I wonder if there's an opportunity for a neutral third party to sort of be the proxy for that or just kind of be the sort of the go-to person to anonymize it, scrub it, or, you know, get it processed in a way where people don't feel like, I think the big thing you hear is people worried about giving away their secret sauce or trade secrets. And at the end of the day, I think, you know, when. The more you look and take peaks under the hood, you find that everyone's pretty much doing a lot of similar work and I'm curious if you had any insights to that as well.[00:21:00]

[00:21:00] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: Well, you know, I think RII, being a nonprofit feels that they should be that trusted party, and I think that. They should be trusted. They are a nonprofit funded by the USDA. similarly, the NYSERDA funded project in New York should be seen as a trusted party to be given that data, because it's implemented by, flex Tech contractors who are certified by nyserda. They're not just random people off the street. And I think that maybe comes down to that. There are parties that should be trusted offering it right now, but their business model needs to be. Incentivized to the growers a little bit more so that those trusted people can take in more volume of data. 'cause they're there, they're ready. I think it's just that the growers. Maybe need more of a return on investment for the whole process of doing it. Because benchmarking, I'll just say this for outside the CEA industry benchmarking is not something that even normal [00:22:00] human occupied building owners care about doing that often or love doing. They usually only do it if they're forced to do it by some sort of building ordinance. Like in New York City, you're required to benchmark buildings that are over a certain square footage, or if they benchmark and use too much energy, they're required to have an energy reduction plan over a certain period of time. That doesn't exist for greenhouses and indoor farms in most cases, so they don't have a stick telling them to do it. So I feel like just gotta offer more carrots and we'll see hopefully if that can move the needle, but. I think that, there are entities already out there ready to be trusted and to be credible.

[00:22:42] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: Yeah, that makes sense. And I appreciate you listing a couple there and we'll make sure we'll include those in the show notes as well. So, as you think about these events, and I imagine you've got a couple coming up on your calendar, where do you think about where, how you wanna play a role in terms of your participation and. Either leading other panels or other topics [00:23:00] that are really top of mind for you, like I'm wondering about your thought process as you think about, you know, the upcoming conferences and where you wanna play a role.

[00:23:08] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: Well, the conference on my mind right now is the Glaze Summit, which is happening next week in Montreal, in Quebec, on Wednesday, November 6th, and then we have a second day for the members only, member meeting and greenhouse tours. And so. I'm playing a pretty big role with that one, kind of moderating the panels, bringing together international people, Canadian researchers, US researchers, Canadian growers, US growers, and we're gonna be having a really cool cross pollination, I hope, of what do our respective industries need and what have we learned that we can share with each other? I also am having a Vivid Canopy event there. So I'm hoping to connect diverse professionals together, hopefully share some job opportunities, get folks to network with people they might not have otherwise met in the industry. And then next year [00:24:00] I actually am planning on going to fewer shows. I think I went to like eight shows or something this year, which was a lot. And that's not just CEA shows. I think I had a couple. Energy efficiency shows ashrae, you know, stuff that's not just CEA. So, I think the role I wanna play next year is actually lifting up members of my team. So I'm gonna be hopefully having some members of my team, be more involved in panels or leading panels, talking on panels themselves. And then, for the ones that I'm applying to do, I am focused on really showcasing the results of that California study because I think that. Like I said, data is scarce and I feel like I've got some real shiny gems to share with people that hopefully we can all use. And then maybe next year I'll be announcing that there's another study happening in the greenhouse industry in California, or that there's another one happening in Illinois. And yeah, I think that, my plan is to. Continue to be a guide. Like I want to help people navigate the [00:25:00] ever-changing programs and the patchwork incentives and the scarce data that's out there. I want people to find me as like a wayfinder, like how can I find out about that energy use stuff? Well, Gretchen knows, so that's where I'll be at the shows.

[00:25:16] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: Do you find that's the role that you are, you're taking on as you start to moderate these panels and as people, you start to get more visibility at these conferences that because of the information you're presenting and doing it in a neutral manner, that's for the benefit of the industry. Do you, are you seeing more people seeing you in that wayfinder role?

[00:25:34] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: Yeah, I do think that it's been really heartening that some people talk to each other and they say, oh, you should talk to Gretchen. And it's like, I. When people trust someone enough to refer them to someone else, like that's just like really speaks volumes. So I think that I've developed a reputation as a person who's going to be knowledge sharing first and develop business after that. Like I [00:26:00] am in general, always interested in collaborating, finding ways to directly work with growers and farms and you know. Make something happen. But I think that because I've overall started in this industry as a person who shares best practices and uncovers what connections can be shared, that's I think where I've tried to stay because, you know, you only kind of get one chance to build trust and you can always build it back. But like I've chosen to really do that first of like, I know this industry is really not friendly with the word transparency, and so I try to be trustworthy to the growers I work with by not being transparent with the stuff they don't want me being transparent with. But then with the other half of my, you know, work that I do, try to share overall general insights so that people feel like, oh, well if I work with her, I'll get something customized for me that is gonna be really actionable, not just like. Pie in the sky or like just make cost [00:27:00] me a bunch of money. Like I really try to find something at all levels, whether it's something that'll cost them nothing to implement, like changing a set point, or whether it's gonna cost a hundred thousand or more to change out a whole system, right? So try to offer something for meet people where they are.

[00:27:17] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: I think it's helpful to be seen as that, neutral party that has everyone's, you know. Benefit in mind as you're working through these projects and that you are a trusted resource? 'cause like I think that is a good point to make, that when people keep a lot of things close to their vest and they worried about like, you know, sharing these secrets and then when they find someone that's choose to their word, you know, it starts to build up a reputation. And it is a small enough industry where word does get around you and like you said, it is that. High school reunion feeling, you start going back to the conferences and you're like, Hey, you know, like I had that experience from the podcast conferences and I'm getting it now from the indoor conferences as well. What's a tough.

[00:27:54] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: [00:28:00] well, I think that the tough question that a lot of people are asking, like the businesses that I work with are asking is like, how can we survive in this volatile time? especially as there was sort of this boom cycle and then now we're in this sort of. Maybe not a bust, but a trough of disillusionment as some have called it. And I think that's fair. Like I'm the child of a person who was on the computer revolution and the.com boom, and basically she rode those cycles. And so I've kind of like been jaded by seeing that happen. So I was kind of prepared for it. And so now it's a challenging question that I've been asking myself is how do I encourage growers to work with engineers? While also being fair and honest about the priorities that they have for spending money that may be engineers are at the bottom at of that list, right? Because the cost of so many things have gone up. Like I've heard a lot about the cost of packaging going up and the cost of [00:29:00] labor. And the cost of energy. So the cost of me, like it struggle with sometimes, you know, making sure that. The work that I do can be added on top of whatever else they need to do. And so a challenge that I always work on is like, how can I make the work that I do pay for itself? Like how can I go after rebates and grants to help their efficiency project ultimately be cheaper? And so my, I'm like a drop in the bucket. Like that's the goal. But it's really hard right now because the costs of everything are so high and there are so many competing priorities and challenges for the growers.

[00:29:37] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: Yeah. your time, in the space in CEA, you know, with your perspective coming in from an outside industry, and outside knowledge about the industry, what are you seeing in terms of trends, you know, at a high level in terms of like. Where it's headed. You know, we are, a lot of people have talked about that tr disillusionment, but I'm curious about, you know, what you're seeing, because you're having so many conversations, because you're involved in a lot of this research, [00:30:00] and I'm wondering if you can kind of pull back the 20,000 foot level for folks that are thinking about entering the space, you know, is now the right time? Should we wait? I'm sure you get asked that as well.

[00:30:11] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: Yeah, and I'm not like an MBA, like, I'm not a business expert. I do have, my lane that I try to stay in is energy, but like I do know that the production costs are driven by energy and labor. And so, I think that the trends that I'm seeing are first consolidation. I think we've seen a lot of that, people selling. Old greenhouses or historically family owned greenhouses that are getting bought up and consolidated in these large multi farm conglomerates. With vertical farming, it's a little bit like that as well, but I would say that trend is more for the greenhouse industry. There's, 'cause there's more of that building square footage to turn over with the vertical farming industry. It's been, more in terms of the resiliency, just seeing things collapse. [00:31:00] But what I've said in previous podcasts is that I think that's actually the way when I see other businesses and buildings and industries in my experience with like commercial and industrial buildings and businesses, is that like there's always going to be that portion of the bell curve that maybe overcapitalized or. Got under fundraised or something. And so like, it reminds me of, for example, how there's always restaurants opening in any city and there's always restaurants closing in any city. So I think that trend of seeing some fail is going to happen for years going forward. There's gonna be folks who really are enthusiastic, but don't get the math right. Or, one thing I've been thinking about is the trend of like expansion locations. How people are choosing those. And so seeing, perhaps people who expanded too fast or those who over-promised expansion and then under-delivered, which then leads to less confidence in [00:32:00] their business model and then maybe let's them have less funding in the future. So all of that to say, my trends that I've thought about recently are that consolidation is probably making the industry more resilient. Because the actors who are good at this are buying up the properties and are hopefully going to implement best practices across a portfolio of buildings. Those who are new to this situation are sometimes buying up those, greenhouses or other buildings that have been surrendered by businesses that have gone under or who don't wanna be in the industry anymore. And, they. In some cases can get existing facilities, but a lot of them, like the, maybe the hybrid greenhouse models that we're talking about, those facilities don't really exist for them to buy up. So they have to build new. And so in that segment of the market, I've been very, intrigued by the way they're selecting where they choose to expand. So, that's special sauce. And that's stuff I don't even really wanna talk about [00:33:00] because some folks might feel like I'm telling their story. And so I think that's actually a trend to watch is why are people choosing to expand where they're expanding? Why are they choosing to expand in the size that they're expanding and why are they choosing to expand with that model? Like the hybrid greenhouse model or like Little Leaf, they're like, Nope, we don't need hybrid any, we got this locked and keyed. We can just keep building more of that. So, yeah, I think that, sorry, to not provide a super, like, what's the term? Like a,

[00:33:35] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: Uh.

[00:33:36] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: what's the term when you, like when someone takes a quote and they just have a little segment of it that is like a good takeaway.

[00:33:43] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: Excerpt.

[00:33:43] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: Yeah, like I don't have some little takeaway to just say like, okay, the trend is that people are moving south. One trend, I guess, involving expansions and consolidation that I find interesting and relevant to the Glaze Summit is that I've heard that many Canadian [00:34:00] experienced operators are looking at the US as an expansion location because we have. Ample space. We have cheaper energy in some cases we have other reasons. They can make money in US dollars and then bring it back to Canada and spend those US dollars in Canadian dollars. So it's, yeah, it's interesting and I hope to see, more greenhouses ultimately in vertical farms get built, in the us. 'cause I think we, the other trend is that we just don't build enough acreage each year. We're just slow. Because construction costs are high and interest rates are high, and

[00:34:38] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: Yeah.

[00:34:39] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: Construction labor's high. So, but what I think to end that sentence on a positive note, I do think That the trend is that hopefully the more resilient ones are surviving and they will continue to grow.

[00:34:51] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: Yeah. That makes sense. It's definitely gonna be an interesting, trend to watch. I appreciate your insights there because I know you've got some perspective there and you gave the perfect answer without revealing too much, but teasing it [00:35:00] out enough so that, that's helpful. One of the things we'd like to do is leave a little bit of space towards the end of these conversations for open dialogue, conversations, fostering conversations, you know, because we have a lot of founders and CEOs actually listen to as well. And so what are your thoughts or anything, any feedback? Insights for the industry, you know, given what you've experienced so far and what you're seeing, I'm just, what comes to.

[00:35:27] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: Well, as a consumer of. Food. Um, I think that I have a desire to see more information being provided to the consumer of why I should buy CEA versus buy product that's been driven across the country to me from California. I think that as a person who's in the industry, I know what to look for and I know the brands and I don't need the story, so I go and buy it. But I think that. If we're gonna talk about packaging and marketing. Let's find a way [00:36:00] for sustainability to have a story in that marketing. And I think that the, we use 90% less water. It doesn't mean anything to anyone if you all say it. So let's actually have information that's unique to you. I was really proud to work with Vertical Harvest when I was at RII and we benchmarked their facility and they, shared on their marketing platform, you'll probably have to go back a couple years, but they shared how much waste they've reduced by, you know, composting and recycling so that they're able to avoid sending those things to the landfill. And if people can hear that story, I would be compelled to buy that product and maybe pay more money for it. And that's actually. Maybe a research question to the business folks, listening to the academic folks thinking of their next research study is, how much more should consumers be willing to pay for a CEA product and how much more are they actually willing to pay for a CEA product? There's some folks who are interested in, talking to the [00:37:00] fine dining groups, to the grocery groups and to the consumers and asking them, well, if I grow a. Artisanal microgreen or artisanal cucumber or celery, is that enough to move the needle if it's actually got sustainability metrics? Or is it really just about the freshness for you? Is it really just about the shelf life? Is it about the fact that it's got a unique color? Does sustainability not matter at all? And in which case that's news to me. It would be really helpful to know, but like I think that. How much it matters is something that I'd like to keep the conversation going about. 'cause for some folks, when I talked at conferences, maybe Indoor Ag Tech, last year when I was moderating a panel on resilience and sustainability, I asked the folks what sustainability meant to them and they all started talking about unity economics. And they're like, we can't save the planet if our business doesn't survive. And I'm like, well, you can't have a business if the planet doesn't survive. So like, let's talk about, maybe meet in the middle. [00:38:00] So, I'd love to hear more folks talk at on panels and just on LinkedIn and just have the conversation going of like. What more can you tell the consumer that compels them to buy CEA? And could that message include more sustainability, more stories from your sustainability goals and journey? Yeah, because I think I would pay more if And some

[00:38:21] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: I.

[00:38:21] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: they, Yeah, sorry.

[00:38:23] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: No, no, no. I agree. I mean, I think definitely like a, something that I sort of learned as I was having these conversations. You know, I started my journey here in vertical farming in 2020, but it was it's conscious decision for me to start paying attention to that as and now being in Minnesota, we have a true vertical farm, but we have a Revel green. So now that this essentially most of the stuff that we get in the market, but it's really paying attention and turning those packages over and seeing like where they're coming from. And I think, you know, some of the higher end markets, like, you know, whole Foods will have a section dedicated to everyone that's local, you know. [00:39:00] All the farmers that provided their stuff. But I think to your point, there is more that needs to be done. cause people don't understand the difference between open field and greenhouse and vertical farm and what that difference makes other than the price tag, right? That's all they're looking at. Like which one is these is most expensive and they're trying to find a happy medium there. So I think some education, for consumers, is gonna be helpful in the long run. So I appreciate you bringing that up.

[00:39:23] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: Yeah, and a thing that came up at that panel also was the word local of like, people don't know what CEA means. Also, something that came up at a recent conference that I didn't know because I'm not old enough to remember this, but apparently greenhouse tomatoes, hot house tomatoes was a derogatory term and they tasted bad.

[00:39:45] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: Oh.

[00:39:45] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: Because in the eighties and nineties, the greenhouse tomatoes, it wasn't that they weren't good quality. It was that they were often being transported unripe, and then they ripened on the way and they were at the grocery [00:40:00] store. Not the best because they were being supply chain managed in a way that got them there. And they're red for you, but they don't taste good. So they're very mealy. That was something I learned. I was like, okay, so even calling something greenhouse grown actually might mean something bad to someone else. And so, local or fresh or crisp or other words that like remind you of that it's gonna stay good in your fridge for a while, or that it only came from 50 miles away. It doesn't really matter to me that it was a greenhouse or an indoor farm. The 50 miles is actually what matters maybe most. And so I think that, if people aren't compelled by the method, maybe we can be compelled by the fact that this is a member of my community, I wanna support them, you know?

[00:40:43] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Even the term local, I, dunno if it's the same nationwide, but I heard it as miles.

[00:40:54] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: Yeah. Yeah. Local can be stretched, I guess. Yeah. And I guess [00:41:00] that's when you start seeing like hyper-local or like, or, and then for us, yes, I was gonna mention mushrooms actually, like, the co-ops in Boutique Grocers here in Vermont. It's a small state, so when. It's local for us, it means it should be from Vermont. And so the mushroom growers are really happy 'cause they get to be local and they're, you know, able to get some good shelf space because there's not that many of them you know, to fill up the space. But now, actually over recent years, there's actually enough of them now where they're like, oh, I can't get in that market yet because that other, you know, local mushroom grower has the space at that market. So, I think that local, to me should be less than 400 miles, but I think it's all up to the consumer. Sometimes our market even says the town that it's from, so we know, oh, that's only from, you know, literally two tons over versus, oh, it's all the way across the state.

[00:41:58] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: Yeah, I think it has to be [00:42:00] part of and desing that information, spend more, that they're aware of it, they're educating themselves. There's two parts that because. The farms are not gonna cater to that if, you know, there's not enough people asking for that. So there's always that push and pull of feeling like how much to provide for something that people may not be clamoring at the gates for. But it's an interesting dance and I think as we more people get educated, there's more information available. People search can.

[00:42:35] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: It makes me think of the cannabis industry a little bit because one of the other dimensions that researchers are interested in looking into is like. Will someone pay more for CEA leafy greens if it's higher nutrition? And so for me, right now, when I go to the grocery store, when I look at all the lettuce boxes, they all look like lettuce. They would to me provide the same level of nutrition. They're all the same. But if I actually had a barcode [00:43:00] where I could scan testing results of the nutritional value of this lettuce and actually prove to myself that it has these flavonoids or these, you know. Like maybe for spinach or something. Oh, it's actually got twice as much vitamin B as the other spinach. That might actually make me spend more money on it. 'cause then I'm like getting my bang for my buck, just like I might do at the dispensary of I'm buying this percent versus that percent. So I think there could be some lessons learned and maybe, maybe we take some nutrition facts, from the cannabis industry in that way. But, I think that would be a way to have the value differentiated for folks on the shelf. We'll see if it happens.

[00:43:39] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: Yeah. Sense. Yeah. [00:44:00] It's not like you. Background and you're coming at it from a different perspective. I think these different voices are helpful for an industry that is growing, that is now suffering through. We need more diverse voices in space so we can kind figure out some challenges. Appreciate.

[00:44:50] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: Thanks so much, Harry. I was just thinking while you were saying that, I was like, I wonder if, you know, 10 years from now or something, you'll be interviewing someone who actually has [00:45:00] done vertical farming from their very first, you know. That was their career that they wanted to pursue and they went into it in college and like, it'll be really cool to see, you know, kids who actually choose that career early on and now have a different story than some of the folks that we are on, you know, talking about today. So thank you for having me. Very much. Glad to chat.

[00:45:23] harry-duran_7_10-29-2024_150333: Recently computer developer's created a vertical. And for.

[00:45:40] gretchen-schimelpfenig--she-her-_1_10-29-2024_160333: I. A new type of automation is, yeah, there's just gonna be more and more of those out there. Yeah, like our study focused on automation of lighting and HVAC and irrigation systems, but you can automate everything like the automated Greenhouse challenge. And I'd love to see, yeah, like vertical farms being run almost completely [00:46:00] hands off and see that really be tested out and compared against ones that work with humans. Because I think as. A person who cares about humans, I think that we still wanna have humans involved in these facilities, but maybe for some sort of higher value. I saw a really cool scouting robot when I was in Ontario, and I was like, that seems like a great use of robots because I. People scouting get really bored. They don't like really doing that repetitive thing over and over again, and they get lost so they don't know where they are. Whereas the robot always knows where it is, never gets tired, and it never gets bored. So yeah.

You can find me on LinkedIn at, you know, just Gretchen Shimel Feig. You can also find me on email at gretchen@eripacific.com and you can also find me on the Vivid Canopy Group [00:47:00] or page as well as the glaze, page. For the Glaze Consortium. So connect with me, send me an email. And I would love to hear from folks and yeah, help maybe collaborate or just answer some questions on how to find some resources to validate some things about energy. I always love sharing research studies or other things that people are looking for proof of something. I might have it, so I'll share it with you. Thanks so much, Harry.