S10E131 Kaylee South / Virginia Tech - Sharing a Passion for CEA and Inspiring the Next Generation of Plant Scientists

Harry Duran [0:00 - 0:07]: So, Kaylee south, assistant professor and extension specialist for CEA at Virginia Tech, thank you so much for joining me on the vertical farming podcast.

Kaylee South [0:08 - 0:11]: Thank you very much for having me. I'm excited for our chat.

Harry Duran [0:12 - 0:24]: I'm trying to think. We've been chatting a little bit on LinkedIn for some time, and I'm wondering how we originally got connected. I think it might have just been through my outreach, or I might have just seen you either speak or through one of your previous engagements.

Kaylee South [0:24 - 0:32]: Yeah, I think it was through LinkedIn. I listened to your podcast, so I did know you through that, but I got connected with you through LinkedIn.

Harry Duran [0:32 - 0:43]: Yeah. And so just for the benefit of listener, to kind of get some feed some insight into your background. Are you currently in Virginia? Are you from there? Were you originally from there?

Kaylee South [0:43 - 0:50]: Yeah. So I'm currently located in Virginia. I'm not from Virginia. I'm originally from Georgia, so I'm a Virginia transplant.

Harry Duran [0:51 - 0:56]: Okay. What was the impetus for the move to Virginia?

Kaylee South [0:56 - 1:15]: I came here for my position, so I was looking for a research and extension or teaching position at a university. And Virginia has a good horticulture program. I'm in the school of plant Environmental Sciences. So as a good plant research program, and so I moved here for this position.

Harry Duran [1:15 - 1:25]: So it sounds and looks like from the, what I see on LinkedIn, going back to your time at University of Georgia, that you've always had an interest in horticultural science. Is that correct?

Kaylee South [1:25 - 1:31]: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I actually started studying horticulture in high school or middle school, I guess.

Harry Duran [1:31 - 1:31]: Okay.

Kaylee South [1:31 - 1:32]: Yeah.

Harry Duran [1:32 - 1:38]: And where did that interest come from? Is it something that came from your family or just something that you naturally were attracted to?

Kaylee South [1:38 - 2:23]: Yeah. So I am from a rural area. I grew up helping my mom in the flower gardens and my dad and grandparents in their vegetable gardens. And so I grew up on a really rural area working on a very small farm. And then that's where I started enjoying working with plants and animals. And when I got to middle school, I had an agriculture teacher, an FFA advisor, who let me work out in the greenhouses. And then when I got to high school, that continued there with my agriculture teachers. I had a mister minyard. He was my high school ag teacher that really worked with me out in the greenhouses. We had four, which was a lot for a high school. Yeah. So that's where it started. I loved it so much. I love working in the greenhouses.

Harry Duran [2:23 - 2:55]: It's interesting because I'm in Minnesota right now, but I grew up just outside New York City, and I live, I've lived in New York City. So really, like, I've been a city boy for a long time, but now that we're here, we're on about an acre of land and we're looking at like some serious homesteading. We have our own well, and we've just been like out there getting our hands in the dirt. So it's an interesting experience and I'm sure it's something you could definitely relate to this idea of having access to your own grown food. There's nothing like that experience of eating food that you've grown and yourself.

Kaylee South [2:55 - 2:56]: Yeah, for sure.

Harry Duran [2:56 - 3:11]: And so when you think about that and your interest was in horticulture, when did you start to, from your time with the greenhouses, did you start to learn more about CEA and the opportunities there and talk a little bit about how that compared to what you had known from traditional Ag.

Kaylee South [3:11 - 4:19]: Yeah, so I guess it was a little bit interesting with when I started getting into greenhouse production. So I entered through the ornamental production side of things, and that's where my focus has been all the way through until I took this position. And so in a lot of my experience, it's mainly just been in greenhouse production. And the term CEA, or controlled environment agriculture didn't come up until I was in graduate school. And so that is not a term that was I was ever introduced to and which is a little bit strange, I guess, since I've been working in greenhouses since middle school and in the education system with greenhouses since middle school. And so I went to grad school again, working with ornamental crops and greenhouses and focused a lot on that side of things. And then controlled environment agriculture started becoming a lot. I guess people started talking about it a lot more when I was in graduate school. And then that's kind of how I found my way into my current position. I've swapped from working with ornamental plants into vegetables, small fruits and herbs is what I'm working with right now.

Harry Duran [4:20 - 4:37]: Can you talk a little bit about the research you did when you were a graduate research fellow and you're doing your postdoc at Ohio State? It looked like you were doing some work on testing stress tolerance. And I'm just curious about. We don't get a lot of conversations here about the specifics of what people are working on behind the scenes. I thought that'd be interesting to learn a little bit more about that.

Kaylee South [4:37 - 6:27]: Yeah, for sure. So I did my research under doctor Michelle Jones at Ohio State. She does floriculture, crop improvement, focusing on greenhouse crop production. And my dissertation research looked into using beneficial bacteria to improve plants defense against plant pathogens. The pathogen that I was specifically looking at, what is botrytis syneria, which is the pathogen that causes gray mold or botrytis blight. And so that's a really big one for greenhouse production and vertical farming, I would think. And it's a problem in, before the plants are put into the systems. It's a problem during production, and it's a problem in post harvest as well. And so I was looking at the production side of things, looking at how can we use bacteria as bio control agents to control those pathogens. And so I did a lot of research in running lab assays where, or studies within the lab where I would investigate what bacteria perform the best in reducing fungal growth. And then I did a lot of greenhouse experiments. I spent a lot of time in the greenhouse working mainly with petunias. Those were my plants. And so I had beautiful projects. I would made really good pictures for presentation. Yeah. So that was the main focus of my research. One part. The other part was using beneficial bacteria to just control plant growth in general. So not control, but to promote plant growth. So, looking at plants that were grown at lower fertility levels to see if we could boost plant growth without using as much fertilizer. And this is all with plants that are grown in traditional, like, potting media, like peat based mixes with floriculture crops, inside of, like, a highly controlled greenhouse environment.

Harry Duran [6:27 - 6:35]: How much of that research that you did back then, was any of it able to be, like, applied in the real world once you were working in greenhouses?

Kaylee South [6:35 - 8:02]: Yeah, that's a good question. So the research that was done during that time, a lot of the bacteria that we were working on, we were working with a company, or working with companies to be able to understand the process of being able to get these out to growers. My PI, my advisor has an extension appointment as well. So it was really important for her to be able to do research that was, that could be applied to what producers were doing out in the greenhouses. And so I know that she did some survey work before I got there to understand what people were thinking about biocontrols. So those are biological controls for controlling, like, plant pathogens or insect, or pest in general, and then also biostimulants, which are things that would be maybe like, it's not always bacteria, but can be beneficial bacteria to, like, promote plant growth. And so she was trying to find those. We were asking research questions that would eventually lead to be able to be applied in the industry. Bio controls were more popular for growers to be able to use out in the field, more so than biostimilants at the time when I was doing my research. But the research that we were doing was looking at finding new bacterial strains that can be applied, and so that process is a bit longer. The bacteria that I was working with is currently still in investigation to understand how they can be used eventually in the greenhouse.

Harry Duran [8:03 - 8:24]: Yeah, I think it's really interesting because that's one of the concerns, I would imagine, in the green. I mean, what we hear and see from the greenhouse and in from the vertical farming space as well, is the fear of pathogens contaminating the entire crop. So that's helpful to that, to see that research is still ongoing, continuing after that. You had a stint, you went to work with Bethel Agricultural association as a project manager.

Kaylee South [8:25 - 8:36]: Yeah. So that was. I actually, I did that at the same time as I was doing my postdoc. I did after I graduated in the middle of 2020. So it was a bit of crazy time.

Harry Duran [8:36 - 8:37]: Yeah, the crazy times.

Kaylee South [8:37 - 9:26]: Yeah, for sure. So I graduated and I did a postdoc at Ohio State with my advisor for a year. And during that time, I also worked for BAA or Bethel Agricultural association. That was a part time position where I was working with a professor that had recently retired from Ohio State that is currently building a university in Africa, in Ethiopia. Yeah, so I worked with him. It's an agricultural university, and so I worked with him making contacts in the agriculture world, thinking about things that the university would need. And so that was a really fun project because it kind of connected me a little bit more outside of the US and had a little bit learning from him the process to go about with making those connections and agriculture outside of what we were doing. So it was very cool, very cool position.

Harry Duran [9:26 - 9:32]: Is there any specific story or time that you remember from those experiences that stands out for you?

Kaylee South [9:32 - 10:23]: Let's see. I guess for thinking about my time with the. As the project manager for BAA, that one of the coolest things was just getting to meet people that were stationed in Ethiopia. I'm getting the opportunity to be able to. We met virtually. I didn't. I haven't gotten to go one day, maybe I'll get to go visit, but was getting to see, I guess, the process in which. And I focus a lot on, like, the research and the production side of things. I'm trained as a grower, but it was really neat to dive into a little bit on, like, the policy side and, like, the regulations that are around, I guess, the things around, like a university or around agriculture in general. That was something that was really cool because it kind of broadened my, like, I guess, understanding of things beyond just thinking about the production and everything around that sort of thing.

Harry Duran [10:23 - 10:48]: So, yeah, it's always interesting when I have conversations with folks that have had experiences in other countries and just to see how people are handling the challenges that they face, whether it's extreme weather, circumstances that they're having in some of these other countries or different methods of growing. So I think anytime you can have that experience and be exposed to different cultures and how they look at and think about agriculture, I think is always a valuable experience.

Kaylee South [10:48 - 10:49]: Yeah, for sure.

Harry Duran [10:49 - 10:59]: And so then you moved into the role of assistant professor at Virginia Tech. Is that a role? And is that something that. Can you talk a little bit about that program, how long it's been around?

Kaylee South [10:59 - 11:58]: Yeah. So my position was a new position. So I am an assistant professor in the School of Plant Environmental Sciences based out of Blacksburg, where the main campus is. But I am located at the Institute for Advanced Learning and Research, a part of the controlled Environment Agriculture Innovation center. And that was established in 2019, and so it's fairly new. It's not, as it's starting to continue to grow. I'm currently so I'm stationed here at that center. It established in 2009. It is a project that is a joint between IELR or the Institute for Advanced Learning and Research and Virginia Tech School of Plant and Environmental Sciences. I am here as part of the School of Plant and Environmental Sciences, and I can tell you a little bit more about how they all got connected and things. But it is a new. It is a newer program since 2019.

Harry Duran [11:59 - 12:03]: Yeah. Can you speak to a little bit how all those programs are connected?

Kaylee South [12:03 - 13:34]: Yeah. So in the Institute for Advanced Learning and Research is a subdivision of the Commonwealth of Virginia. It's not part of Virginia Tech, although at one time, I believe it was part of Virginia Tech. They have a lot of connections. They don't focus only on agriculture. They have a lot of different pieces, such as they have a conference service. They have a lot of different things going on. They have advanced learning. But then I am here as tied into working with their research division. They have an applied research division, and that's kind of where I fit in. I'm here as, like, a Virginia tech representative, I guess, and I work alongside their researchers to do both research as well as outreach projects. IALR has a research arm that's focused, that's interested in controlled environment, agriculture. And so they. The director of the, I guess he's the vice president now the vice president of the applied research division at IALR, along with the current director of the school of plant and environmental sciences, Mike Evans, they got together and formed the CEA Innovation center. And so it is a center that is working with industry. It's doing outreach projects, research for the purpose of moving forward, the industry, both in Virginia and beyond that. So it was really kind of like a project that came out of these two groups working together to be able to establish the center.

Harry Duran [13:34 - 13:46]: Yeah. And we've been partnering with indoor ad Con, who is one of the partners for that event. And I know they've got the CEA summit coming up in October of this year, Danville as well. Have you been able to make it out to any of these events?

Kaylee South [13:46 - 14:08]: Yeah, so I went to indoor at Con last year. I didn't get to go this year because I had like, a travel conflict, but I heard it was very good. But I did get to go the first year we were out there representing. We had the CEA Innovation center, had a booth last year, and this year, so we had some representatives there to talk about a little bit of what was going on at the center.

Harry Duran [14:08 - 14:11]: And you went to the one in Danville or to the one in Las Vegas?

Kaylee South [14:11 - 14:14]: Oh, so the one that I went to, the one in Las Vegas.

Harry Duran [14:14 - 14:15]: Okay.

Kaylee South [14:15 - 14:51]: Yeah, the one in Danville is the one. So I'm the Virginia tech lead for that event, so I'm always there. So we did the CEA summit east. That was the joint program that was between indoor ad Con and Virginia Tech and Ialr. We kind of put that, we put that event together, and it started in 2022 two, and we are working on planning the 2024 version. So that is the event that we hold here in Danville, where I'm located at IAlR, at their conference facility. So that event, for folks that have.

Harry Duran [14:51 - 15:11]: Not attended or maybe have only attended the indoor icon. I was at indoor icon, actually this year, just got back a couple of weeks ago. It's always a bigger and bigger event every year, and they've been putting on a. They're doing a great job. Suzanne's doing a great job with that conference. For folks that are maybe familiar with indoor icon in Las Vegas, can you talk a little bit about the sessions or what gets discussed at the CA summit east?

Kaylee South [15:11 - 18:22]: Yeah, yeah, for sure. So it's a little bit different. We have a focus on trying to bring together industry, academia, so researchers, extension agents, instructors, educators, all of those folks, and bringing them together to have a good network. Have a good network to build their network, as well as to talk about some of the, some of the hot topics or maybe up and coming topics and current research that is going on within the industry. So to give you an idea of what it looks like, we have a conference portion, and then we also have, like, a networking or, like a tabletop part of the summit as well. So for the conference sessions, we typically have breakout sessions. So this past year, we had four. So we usually have three to four breakout sessions where we have different tracks. So we usually have, like, a grower track. So this past year, we had some sessions on EC and ph management for hydroponic systems. So managing your, like, your fertilizer and those sorts of things. We spend a lot of our time, or a lot of our sessions are panels. And so we'll invite speakers from different sectors, so we'll have industry represented. We may have a government official on a panel to talk about maybe policy or regulations. And then we also have, like, extension come out and talk about that, as well as researchers who are doing research in these different topics sit on the panel. And then what we'll have them do is to either give short presentations, or they'll have questions prepared, or they'll end. They'll open up questions from the audience. And so we stage it to have a discussion, like, learning session, to, like, ask people questions and to spark some really good conversations. We also have research and industry updates. So we have these short presentations where we have researchers come give presentations related to research that they're doing within CEA to come and give these short presentations on, just, like, what's going on and what they're working on. We also have industry members give presentations on either new technology or research that they may be doing that they would like to share at the event. And then we also have tabletop exhibits. We have companies come in. Suppliers that come in are there to be able to network and also to make connections, both with growers or other suppliers, as well as with researchers who may be interested in working with them, trialing products and things like that. And then we also have an academic hall. So this past year, we called it the academic hall. And we had tables laid out for different institutions to be able to put things. So this would be like, we had a table where we had things from UGA had things out there, and then Virginia Tech had a couple of booths with information about seafood, so aquaculture and aquaponics. And then we had some information about our programs we have. So we had a lot of stuff going on. So it's quite an event. It has definitely a really fun time. Everybody has a lot of fun. We hear that people really enjoy themselves. So I encourage everyone to attend.

Harry Duran [18:22 - 18:48]: Yeah, and we'll provide links to that in the show notes as well for this episode. And it feels like from the way that you're describing it, it's more of an intimate conference. Indoor icon is in Las Vegas. So obviously everything is big there. And you're like big rooms, big office, big conference centers. But I get the sense from the way you're describing it, these tabletop sessions that it's more of an intimate space and there's more of an opportunity for actually more networking and conversations with folks.

Kaylee South [18:48 - 19:10]: Yeah, that's right. That's a really good description of it. I think it is more intimate. I think, I think that's something that we've heard feedback on, is that people are excited about the opportunity because it is so small. You run into people often and you have really good one on one conversation. And so that's something, some positive feedback we've gotten. So I agree. I think that's a good describer of it.

Harry Duran [19:11 - 19:44]: Most of the listeners, I think, to this podcast may know, but what's been interesting to see is how much support you've been getting from Governor Glenn Youngkin. And what was interesting is last year, March 20, in March of 2023, he proclaimed March as Virginia controlled Environment Agriculture Month, which is wild because its the first time any governor has done anything. And so its been interesting to see. And im wondering whats been the impact, from your perspective, of all the support the governor has been given both to CEA but also just in terms of exposure, like not only countrywide but probably globally wide as well.

Kaylee South [19:44 - 21:39]: Yeah, yeah, thats a good question. It was interesting for us because it gave it last year when it was declared a CEA month, we had a visit from the governor to our center. And so that was exciting for us because we had the opportunity to, he came and we got to show him, like, exactly what we were doing, the research that we were doing. We gave short little presentations on the programs that we have going on and that sort of thing. And so that was very exciting because we got to share it with someone in government and the government that is, you know, making lots of decisions on things. And so it was really exciting for us. And so that was one really cool outcome that may have as far as, like, exposure goes, because it was cool to have him come and see that it has also, I think, brought CEA to the table to talk about in other ways that outside of research has brought, I guess, interest from people that may not have originally thought maybe to be in the CEA industry. Maybe there's companies that are interested in entering into CEA. I think it's also brought it to the regulation, talking about it on the regulation level as well, because, you know, what we do in CEA, a lot of the things of the way that food products are regulated may not be as applicable to things in CEA as they are out in field production and those sorts of things. And so I think that it's the conversation, I think, that's brought a lot of, I think, attention that would be needed to be able to also increase consumer awareness. I know that consumer awareness and understanding how crops are grown in CEA are also really important. Consumer education is really important when it comes to CEA. And I think that by bringing it into the light is the way that through, you know, not just the CEA month, but into other aspects, I think has also been another outcome that is important.

Harry Duran [21:40 - 21:46]: Yeah, I was talking to the organizers of indoor icon, and we're going to try to see if we can get the governor on the show. So we're trying to get that coordinated.

Kaylee South [21:46 - 21:47]: So I think it'd be interesting to.

Harry Duran [21:47 - 22:26]: Hear his take on it because it's important to have as many supporters of CEA, you know, and educators, to your point, because I think, I don't know what your experience has been, but, like, when you try to explain to people outside of the industry, what is indoor farming? What is vertical farming? What is CEA? Sometimes people are just so used to getting their bagged lettuce from California that they just think if it's in the supermarket and it's there and it works, then there's really nothing to worry about. So I'm wondering if you touched on the topic of education. So in your role as assistant professor, what are the things that you essentially, for someone who's not familiar with the role of an assistant professor, especially specifically with CEA, like, what is your day to day look like?

Kaylee South [22:26 - 25:58]: I think that every day is vastly different. My role is a lot of fun. I enjoy it greatly. My appointment for my position is part research and part extension. And so in my position, since I am majority research, I spend a lot of time planning and conducting studies. Part of that is also training students. So I train undergraduates and graduate students on how to be good horticulturist and to be good scientists. So that is my research role. As far as like doing the physical research. I also spend a lot of time getting funding to be able to support my research and my extension program. So I spend a lot of time looking for and writing grants. And then, so that's a lot of my time as well. I do. And then also part of my research appointment is producing papers. So once I grow the plants, I collect data, I then take that data and turn it into software, scientific publication that goes out to the scientific world. And then I take what's in that and repackage it into an extension article that will go out to more of like an industry audience. So that would go to growers and other people interested in CEA. And then I can also take that information and repackage it into presentations that I share at when I go out to like talk to growers and things like that. So that's part of my role. The other part is the extension piece. And so we are working on ways that we can, I guess, assist. We're trying to right now to better understand how we can assist people or assist the industry in meeting their needs for training and education around CEA. Earlier, we talked about how the term CEA can be a little bit challenging for us to be able to reach out to people. And that's something that I find a lot because in my role, I work a lot with greenhouse producers or with people who are interested in getting into vertical farming, but are not quite sure what CEA entails or understand the terminology that's used around it. So a lot of times I'll go out to grower meetings or to maybe like small business meetings or things like that and give presentations. The first thing we do is define CEA and we go through all the different aspects of it. And then I may dive into maybe research results or talk about any challenges that they're facing. And so my extension program I work right now, I'm working on the education side of things, of trying to, I guess, bring understanding of what CEA is, then learning from what the needs of the industry are, and then taking that and putting that back into my research program. So for my research program, I use that to be able to understand, like those types of projects that would be more like directly go pretty quickly back into production practices. And then I also ask questions that may or not be a more like, maybe not be immediate. It's a little bit more far out from being applied, but something that's being done to help improve the knowledge of in the area. And so my days are a bit hectic, and I never know. Things are a little bit different every single day, but that's pretty much, I think that's pretty much everything that may happen.

Harry Duran [25:58 - 26:27]: Yeah. Thank you for that detailed description of your day to day, and it sounds like you definitely have a lot on your plate along those lines. You mentioned this definition of CE in the terms, and I think that's something that'd be beneficial for my listeners because I do mention these terms a lot, and sometimes we use them interchangeably. But I'm curious, because you mentioned that you have an audience that sometimes needs clarification. What are the main terms that you work with and how do you define them? Because I think that'd be helpful.

Kaylee South [26:27 - 29:09]: Yeah. Yeah. So we usually start out talking about, like, what is controlled environment, agriculture and defining that. So there's a. So a lot of definitions for CEA. So I usually go about defining it as just a, like a multidisciplinary approach to the production of agricultural products inside of environments that are tailored for whatever is being produced. And so it's pretty, that's pretty broad and can encompass a lot of things. But next, I usually go through understanding what that means. So I'll go through, like, what are the facility types? So what are people growing plants or other things inside of? So, such as, like, mushrooms and where they growing them in? And so we'll talk about, like, vertical farms, we'll talk about greenhouses. And then I also include in that high tunnels and hoop houses. And so I'll put those on the spectrum, and we'll talk about the different spectrum of environmental controls. So going from your very low amount of control, from, like, your hoop houses all the way up to your vertical farms, you're controlling everything down to the light. We kind of go through that spectrum to understand what the facility types are and what is included, what can be included in that definition of the EA. We also talk about the system. So what's found inside of a, like, inside of one of these facilities? So we'll talk about hydroponics. We'll talk about that. You know, there's seven main types of hydroponic systems that most of them fall into. And so we'll run through those types of hydroponic systems, like NFT nutrient, nutrient film technique, veg buckets or beto buckets using the drip irrigation system. So we'll talk about those run through hydroponic systems. We'll also talk about, like, substrates, growing plants and pots, and what types of substrates people use. And we'll also talk about crops. So like common crops defined inside of CEA facilities, ones that are super common, like lettuce and microgreens, and then all the way to crops that maybe are not so common, but people are interested in growing like saffron and so those exciting ones as well. And so we kind of, we start big thinking about like the large definition and making sure that people know that if they're producing inside of these facilities, that a lot of times are not associated with CEA, like greenhouses. A lot of times I speak to people who don't associate themselves with the CE industry but are producing inside of greenhouse facilities, sometimes very highly controlled greenhouse facilities, making sure that starting there and understanding like what we're talking about, because it's really important to be able to understand for me to be able to capture what people's needs are in this state by making sure we're including people in the conversation who fall underneath that CEa umbrella.

Harry Duran [29:10 - 29:59]: That's extremely helpful and probably the most detailed walkthrough we've had of all the different terms on this show. And so I couldn't think of someone better to walk us through that. So thank you for that. I dont know if you heard the conversation I had with the founders of Veles farming in Slovakia. Theyre doing saffron there as well. And I met them at Verta Farm in that conference in Germany. So that might be an interesting one to listen to because its such a specific and unique crop. Right. With specific needs and that can be sold at a high price point. So I thought it was interesting to hear the challenges theyre having there. So, as you know, whats been most interesting for you, as you have these conversations in terms of the feedback youre getting or the interest from people or people that are new to the industry, is learning the different terms helpful for them? And once you lay that out for them, do they then see the opportunities that exist in this space?

Kaylee South [30:00 - 32:41]: They do. So one thing that was really interesting for me, I attended a vegetable grower meeting last year for Virginia, the end of the year, and I gave, gave a presentation and I wasn't sure about how it was going to go, but I gave a presentation that compared hoop houses or high tunnels and to greenhouses to understand what the differences are and what the spectrums of control are. Like, what are you controlling? Understanding the terms of defining a greenhouse. Defining. We didn't really dive into vertical farms because it was not quite on the radar yet to this group. But we talked a lot about just comparing those and comparing like, what does it mean, like, what do these different terms mean? Like using cooling pads in a greenhouse, like defining, like what that means defining what IPM or integrated pest management is and those sorts of things. It was, people were very excited and people were excited to like, understand the differences and having the context, I think, and the words to be able to put to things that they may have already been doing, but weren't quite sure exactly how to talk about them or didn't know about the opportunities for other crops that could be grown and how they may expand upon what they're doing. I feel like that having like, that context is really important. One thing that we're doing right now is we've just launched a survey to understand the needs for educational and training needs of the CEA industry. And so we've put a definition to CEA that's pretty broad, that captures a lot of people. And our goal with this survey is to be able to receive feedback from anyone who is interested in CEA. So not just growers, but anyone. And our goal with that is for us to be able to understand what we're learning from that project is thinking about the different understanding terms and things like that, that people want to dive deeper into and understand these concepts a little bit more, such as, you know, maybe someone, maybe people are really interested in learning more about like lighting and terms around that, or learning more about how to optimize that. We're trying to capture that types of information through this survey. And so right now that surveys out, and hopefully with that, that will help inform our training programs to answer the types of questions of like what do people want to dive deeper into? And that we can help either create the information for or share information that's already been developed through other universities and companies as well, that have outreach programs.

Harry Duran [32:41 - 33:26]: Yeah, that sounds very helpful and very thorough. What have you noticed in terms of people's interest, obviously in CEA and specifically vertical farming, as is the topic for this podcast, or maybe something that you've seen because a lot of your experiences in greenhouses and either maybe from attending the conferences or in conversations you're having, what are you seeing as the opportunities that maybe exist in vertical farming that don't exist in greenhouses? Or is there a chance? Because every time we start to have these conversations, people, they try to make it an end or. But I think what we've come to see is it depends in terms of the application. And also there's opportunities where, you know, for example, a greenhouse can use vertical farming to, you know, start their seedlings in a lower footprint. And so I'm interested to see what you've been seeing or hearing.

Kaylee South [33:26 - 35:23]: Yeah, so we're seeing a lot of. There's been a lot of interest in vertical farming, not just obviously on the very large scale, so we have the very large scale producers, but as far as, like, a smaller scale vertical farming, there's a lot of interest in using them as a way to, like, put into cities where maybe they're trying to revitalize the city or maybe to use empty office space, that there's been this big movement where people are not working as much in the office since COVID a lot of people have moved away from office spaces, are working a lot more at home. And so I've heard there's lots of empty office spaces in places. And I had someone contact me interested in how they may utilize this empty space to put in vertical farms. I've also had a city official who was interested in using it in. They were trying to work on ideas to revitalize a city. And these are going into spaces where a greenhouse would not make sense and would not work. And so I think there's a lot of opportunities on that skill as far as people using them in these types of spaces. I'm also seeing vertical farming used a lot in education. That's been a big thing right now in Virginia, where I'm having a lot of people from school schools who are either developing programs, who have already developed programs where they're implementing vertical farming technology or putting in either little systems or wanting to transform a space into a vertical farm so that they can have their students grow plants to help them connect with plant production, agriculture, as well as a lot of other areas, like programming the systems and math for the fertilizer. So things like that. And so I think that there's a lot of specific opportunities where vertical farming can fit in and only vertical farming can fit in, whereas greenhouse production would not really be a viable option.

Harry Duran [35:24 - 36:07]: Yeah, we're seeing a lot of those conversations as well, and are hearing about those conversations. One of our past guests was doing work. They come from a real estate background, but they're looking at old schools and school buildings and the repurposing them for indoor vertical farming use cases. So I think it's really interesting to see. I think some of the challenges with some of the office spaces that I've heard before is because of the height restriction, you have to break through the floors of some of these buildings to get in some of these racks in these systems. But there's probably specific use cases and something that could be done on a smaller scale, I think, to your point. So I think it's interesting to see people being creative about looking at ways to do this, and it'd be interesting to see what the next six to twelve months look like in terms of repurposing some of this space that's not being used.

Kaylee South [36:07 - 36:08]: Yeah.

Harry Duran [36:08 - 36:16]: And so this is a question I ask a lot of the CEO's and founders here and maybe a different answer for you. But what's a tough question you've had to ask yourself recently?

Kaylee South [36:17 - 37:05]: I think a tough question that recently and before that would be what do I want to study next? I guess what do I want my next research topic to be? There's so much that, that we don't know and there's so many questions and there's a lot of things that a lot of challenges that industry faces. We have a vertical farm production facility here at the center that I have the opportunity to do research in. And so I guess it's a hard question to decide what do I want to work on next that's going to have the most immediate and biggest impact to help decide, help to address some of the challenges that the industry is facing. And so I think that's probably a, that's usually a tough question for me, trying to work on what we're going to do next and how we're going to do it and figuring that out.

Harry Duran [37:06 - 37:37]: Yeah, that's a really good one. And I'm sure you're looking at it from the lens of which one is going to have the most impact. Right. As well. So that's helpful. Well, I want to appreciate you coming on the show because it's, we don't get to speak to a lot of folks from the academic side of, and it's been interesting to hear your perspective and also to hear your excitement about what's happening. I'm curious from an assistant professor perspective, you teach your students how to be a good horticulturist or what makes a good plant scientist. And so from your perspective, what does make a good plant scientist?

Kaylee South [37:38 - 38:54]: Yeah. So I think that growing the plants well is really important and like understanding, getting to know the plant that you're working with, understanding its background, you know, knowing its scientific name, understanding what we know about how it grows. So knowing what kind of environmental conditions that does it need, what is fertilizer does it need? And knowing that type of information and then being able to implement that, knowing how to mix fertilizer, knowing how to look up at a plant and know, like, okay, this plant is not doing well. Like, it could be this, this and this, and be able to have those problem solving skills to run through. What it takes to grow a plant, I think is really important to set a foundation for the research that will go into it. So having that foundation of being able to produce a good crop and be able to do it efficiently and effectively is really important. Before diving into a research question to be able to how do we increase the yield of a crop? Like applying some sort of treatment to be able to increase the yield, we first got to know how to grow the plant really well. And so I think that's really important in understanding, like, the plant and the horticulture side of things, the horticultural practices, the cultural practices and that sort of stuff.

Harry Duran [38:55 - 39:15]: So you do have that front row seed. What are you seeing in terms of, like, interest from students in CEA and are you seeing an uptick? And because of the exposure and obviously the companies that do the marketing really well, like the plenty of the world, they're really active on social media. So I'm wondering if this whole combination of things has more and more students interested in learning this.

Kaylee South [39:15 - 41:07]: Yeah. Yeah. So I get a lot of people interested in pursuing. I'm educating a lot of. So I'll be educating masters and PhD students. And so I get a lot of people that are excited in the industry and what can come next for it. I also get a lot of students so I, who are not necessarily in the industry right now or who have a plant background, but once they get into the greenhouse and are working with the plants or the vertical farm, they really enjoy it. So I'm working. I have two undergraduates in my lab right now. One is coming from a real estate background and the other one is, I think he's working in, maybe he's a liberal arts major, maybe. And both of them have just dived in and are doing an excellent job and are excited about the industry. Both of them were interviewed recently by our marketing team at IALR, and they talked about their getting to be able to watch the plants grow and getting into this industry. It was exciting. And one of them is thinking about changing the horticulture. So that was a success. But a lot of times the students aren't seeing the possibilities until they experience it. And so one thing that we're doing is they can come in as interns or as research, like undergraduate research assistants to work in the lab and help me with projects. The other way is that we have demonstration farms and our demons. Our farm is also a demonstration farm, not just for research. And so we have k through twelve come through our facilities a lot. And so that really helps give them like inside look into CEA and we talk about the industry and opportunities and going into growing plants or going into other aspects of and suppliers, that sort of thing. And so I see a lot of excitement, but I see more excitement whenever people are coming in and like experiencing it. People are, they get like, oh, yeah, I want to learn more about this. So that's where I, where I'm seeing things.

Harry Duran [41:08 - 41:42]: Yeah, that's exciting to see their interest. So as we wrap up, I've been leaving some time at the end of these conversations for any message you might have for the folks in this industry. There's a lot of the leaders in the space that listen to the show, a lot of the founders and CEO's of the companies listen as well. And so it's sort of created this little water cooler effect. And I've been, the more I hear conversations I have, the more it's clear that the more we start talking to each other about what's working, what's not. And so any thoughts you have from your experience to the people that, the leaders in the industry that might be listening to this episode?

Kaylee South [41:42 - 43:08]: Yeah, that's very cool. A cool ecosystem that we've got that you've got going on. So one thing that I like to always tell people is I like to hear from industry, I like to understand what people see are working and are not working in their facilities, struggles that are being had, because that helps to inform what I do to be able to move the research in the area forward as well as to train students. And so I'm training a lot of students who, when they graduate, they may be thinking about joining a company. And a lot of people are going to industry coming out of academia. And I think there's a lot of opportunity for that going into CEA with people coming because CEA tends to have a high skill need. And so that's one thing that I've heard. And so I think just communicating that and, you know, being if you have anything of interest that something that's a challenge that you think that is important for people to know, like researchers and educators in the university setting, an extension setting that you think it would be good to implement or to train students in or research questions that you think need to be answered with things that people are struggling with. I am always very excited and open to hear those things because it helps me to be able to I guess look into those and to be able to train students in that way, that's helpful.

Harry Duran [43:08 - 43:57]: And I think the leaders in this industry would benefit from hearing that message. So I'm glad you put that out there. Well, Kaylee, thank you so much for this conversation. I'm always learning something on these conversations and I know my listeners are as well. And so I appreciate you making the time and just giving us some more perspective, especially from what's happening in Virginia, because it's obviously a hotbed of activity related to CEA. And I'm glad we're reminding people of the CEA summit East, which is going to be October. I think the dates are October 1 and second in Danville. So you can find a link from indoor icon as well as ceasummit.com. So we'll make sure we have all those links in the show notes. And thanks again for sharing your story as well. It's inspiring to see that people can aim for careers and academia, specifically within CEA and vertical farming, which is exciting.

Kaylee South [43:57 - 44:06]: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Thank you very much for having me on. This has been fun to, I'm always excited to talk about CEA, and so this has been very fun. I appreciate the invitation.

Harry Duran [44:06 - 44:08]: Okay. Thanks again. I appreciate it.