S11E152 Simon Wardle/Gooddrop Ltd - Sustainable Cotton: A New Era in Vertical Farming

Harry Duran 00:00:00: So, Simon Wardle, CEO of Good Drop, thank you so much for joining me on the vertical farming podcast.

Simon Wardle 00:00:04: All right, my pleasure. I'm really happy to be here.

Harry Duran 00:00:07: So as of this recording, it's the day before Thanksgiving in the States and so anyone who's in the States right now is probably scrambling to. This is their Friday. Yeah. So I think for you in the UK it's different. What is it like to just watch your US counterparts just react and be.

Simon Wardle 00:00:22: In a frenzy over to Thanksgiving? Yeah, well, we try not to think about it too much, I guess, Harry, because you are kind of celebrating your separation from us, as violent as he was, so.

Harry Duran 00:00:30: That's true.

Simon Wardle 00:00:31: We try not to think of it too much, I guess.

Harry Duran 00:00:33: That's funny. Yeah. Is there anything that you celebrate that would be along the lines? Because, you know, when you think about the origins of it and obviously there's a lot of, you know, meaning people want to attach to it, but at the end of the day, what I think what I focus on is actually stopping for a moment and just to give thanks and gratitude and sometimes even like as business owners, you know, we're just trying to hit the next milestone. And then I do this myself where I'm just guilty of not, you know, being too hard on myself with what I haven't accomplished without taking the time to look back at what I did, especially like over the past year.

Simon Wardle 00:01:03: Yeah, well, I guess here we stick to mainly the religious festivals, don't we, with the odd Halloween thrown in. But Harvest festival used to be a thing when I was a kid. But I don't know if people still do that, frankly. And honestly I'm guilty of saying. Which is kind of appropriate though, Harvest festival, right?

Harry Duran 00:01:18: Yeah, it's been interesting because my partner is into a lot of like the Celtic traditions and like the earth based traditions and you go back far enough and, you know, some of them, you know, they really celebrate the equinox, solstices, the true, like, you know, milestones. It's true that everyone in the world is going through at the same time.

Simon Wardle 00:01:35: All agricultural based as well, I suppose. Right.

Harry Duran 00:01:38: Yeah, that's true. So where is home for you now?

Simon Wardle 00:01:41: I live in a town called Beverly, which is in the north of England, north of Hull still both towns that most people haven't heard of, I guess. Beverly is a small market town kind of to the east of Leeds, which is further to the east of Manchester. And then I think they hit a town that most people have heard of.

Harry Duran 00:01:58: Yeah. A lot of tourists there.

Simon Wardle 00:02:00: Yeah, actually, yeah, it's like a miniature York. I can say again, another town that most people have heard of and it's quite close to York, really. 40 minute drive.

Harry Duran 00:02:07: Yeah.

Simon Wardle 00:02:08: So that's home. Yeah.

Harry Duran 00:02:09: When you start learning history and you start seeing all the places in the States that have new in front of them, you probably want to think about.

Simon Wardle 00:02:15: Why they're called new. I don't know if you've got a New Beverly, have you?

Harry Duran 00:02:18: You probably have somewhere, maybe that's about the closest.

Simon Wardle 00:02:20: Oh, maybe, yeah.

Harry Duran 00:02:21: So you're born and raised there, you grew up there?

Simon Wardle 00:02:24: No, I was born and raised not far away in Leeds, about an hour's drive from here. But yeah, I arrived here some, I don't know, 25, 26 years ago. Raised our children here for the most part.

Harry Duran 00:02:36: Let's unwind the clock back a little bit because we'll get into how you ended up in the world of vertical farming and on this show.

Simon Wardle 00:02:41: Right.

Harry Duran 00:02:42: But it sounds like you had an interest or it looks like from the cv you had a bit of an interest in design early on.

Simon Wardle 00:02:47: A bit, yeah. So with a partner, set up a design, an interior design business some 20 years ago. It's 20 years old now, working for brands such as Harley Davidson, delivering their retail environment design across the globe. Actually, we've been pretty much across the globe everywhere and we continue to work for them and other, you know, significant brands on the high street. Arcterix for example, Mango, Lululemon are all clients that we've worked for and are working for. So, yeah, 20 years ago we set that business up and then that has evolved to become not just an interior design business but also an architectural practice as well, with offices in different parts of the world. And that's going quite nicely, really. So, yeah, kind of a quantum leap from there to vertical farming, I suppose.

Harry Duran 00:03:35: I'm curious.

Simon Wardle 00:03:36: Yeah.

Harry Duran 00:03:37: Did you always have that design inkling? If I were to ask your parents, were you always sketching designing as far back as you can remember?

Simon Wardle 00:03:44: Absolutely, yeah. Always had an artistic leading show, was there, you know.

Harry Duran 00:03:48: Where are you drawing inspiration from back then?

Simon Wardle 00:03:50: Well, I guess I'm one of these people that's found my way through life working for different types of businesses. Earning a dollar really has been what it's been about raising a family. And quite honestly, without any real direction, you know, you find yourself doing the job that you find yourself doing, I think is often what happens to a lot of people. It's a rare thing that somebody says, I've studied this and I'm going to do it Right. You know, like you were saying earlier, there's very few people in vertical farming they can say they studied it at university. We kind of find ourselves doing things, don't we? And I think maybe a common story is those that have found themselves in a career they were unhappy with, they finally say, you know, screw this, I'm going to go and do it for myself. Right. And I'm one of those people where I found myself in a place I didn't like being. And the only option really was to go out and go alone and start doing what you already know and see if you can make a success of it. And we did. You know, myself and my business partner, one of my partners, started that together 20 years ago and we've kind of never looked back. Well, it's been a great journey.

Harry Duran 00:04:52: How is that? The design world evolved over the years and are you seeing it changing now?

Simon Wardle 00:04:57: It seems like everything's changing, right?

Harry Duran 00:05:00: Everything's changing. So I'm curious, everyone's a designer.

Simon Wardle 00:05:03: Yeah, yeah.

Harry Duran 00:05:04: Or using Eye for Design.

Simon Wardle 00:05:06: Exactly. Right. So everybody suddenly become a designer. Not suddenly. It's been happening a long time. You know, with the advent of 3D rendering and such like, you know, you find people that if they can manipulate the software, they consider themselves designers because they make nice looking images. The truth is that the images are rendering of some significant thought and planning if it's done properly. Right. And I guess we're seeing the same happening with AI. You know, you can tell all your AI rooms to design your X, Y and Z and lo and behold, they come up with some actually quite often, some really significantly meaningful designs in amongst the detritus. You know, there's a lot of nonsense around some things, but inside them is quite a good thing. So we find you've got to learn to use the tools that are available to you. Right. You've got to learn to evolve with that's evolving around you and become experts in using everything that you've got at your disposal. I suppose.

Harry Duran 00:05:57: Yeah, yeah. It seems like every industry it feels now is ripe for overhaul or innovation or maybe even some may not make it. You know, when you think about what people are studying in school or kids are studying in school now, and how do you think about like, you know, you mentioned raising a family, like how do you think about giving students or your children direction in terms of, you know, you could tell someone what to study earlier because you felt they did have a solid career, but nowadays it feels like everything's up in the air.

Simon Wardle 00:06:25: It is up in the Air. It's quite scary, I think, isn't it, really? And I think when you ask a man of my age about trying to tell his children what you should do, I start sounding my age. Right. And I think, you know, the way we tried to raise our kids was to have fun in life and listen and try and learn and do the best you can, really. We're not pushy people. We've not been about pushing them to try and do anything that we think they ought to do. And they're both succeeding in life and are doing really well as it happens. So, yeah, I'm quite happy.

Harry Duran 00:06:55: I'm going to make a guess and let's see if I'm right here, but I'm thinking about design and maybe your experience with textiles, could that have been the jump to cotton at all?

Simon Wardle 00:07:03: No, it wasn't. No, really. Honestly, it wasn't that simple. I can tell you how it happened, really.

Harry Duran 00:07:08: Yeah.

Simon Wardle 00:07:09: And it's this thing about curiosity, I reckon, you know, part of the designer within me is all about being curious and asking questions and being wowed by things is how I've always been. And. And I guess getting into what we're doing now was very much one of those journeys of that. So we were brought together with a number of people for a project and we came to this project as the architectural guides. Right. We were going to design this mega vertical farm for the Middle East. It was all planned. We've been guided by an individual that brought a team of people together and it was really exciting. Right?

Harry Duran 00:07:43: Sure.

Simon Wardle 00:07:44: But in amongst that, I kind of got wowed by the actual farm itself and remembering all the things that I'd learned at school when I was a kid that I didn't really hold on to. You know, it's like, oh, my God, a seed. And a seed does what? And you start seeing the journey and understanding and remembering things before. But there was just this overwhelming excitement about what we were trying to do. And it wasn't cotton related. It was all about the leafy greens and such like that. The industry's really perfecting now, but in a monster, obviously. I was telling you a little bit earlier about the history of the design thing and working on the high street and working with retail clients. And it was remembering the conversations that retail are having all the time about their difficulties with supply chain, especially with cotton. Right. Especially around the cotton thing. And being able to manage the supply chain and being able to genuinely tell the world that they source a particular cotton for these garments that is entirely sustainable is, you know, being produced in fields that don't have any slave labor in them. Many issues around the supply chain in cotton that it seemed in a light bulb moment that we thought, well, doesn't vertical farming cure all that? Yeah, you know, one of those. Do you think it does? And you piece it all together and you think, well, it's got the potential to. Right. There's something in it where done right and done correctly and it all coming together. Well, there are solutions in there that can solve a lot of problems that the retail supply chain have got. And then. Alleluia. Right. It's another example of another vertical farming solution that does all the other very positive things that vertical farming does. Right. That we know about in terms of water use and land use and et cetera, et cetera, all the good things that we know vertical farming can do. So that adds to the sustainability message from retail as well. So it enhances their objectives around sourcing sustainable cotton. And they use the word sustainable. It's more than sustainable really, when we do it our way. And then you ask yourself, why hasn't anybody done this before then? And you know, that would have been my next question. Yes, right. And it seems that people have. Right. And you might question whether the right people have tried to do it. I have, you know, without naming names, but there are certain companies that I'm aware of that have grown cotton in a vertical farming setting and told everybody it doesn't work. I don't think it's in their interest for it to work. And there's a status quo that certain companies don't want to shift. Right.

Harry Duran 00:10:12: Yeah.

Simon Wardle 00:10:12: And maybe, you know, that's one example. There's an example of that. I'm aware of a major company that did that. They're not a retailer. It's in the supply chain and it's the point of the supply chain where retailer find it difficult to break through into the spinning mill. And so the example I'm giving is a spinning milk that's tried before and I'm aware of other university projects that have tried doing this and they're looking at, you know, growing under glass and you know, reducing the amount of water that's used. All really noble things to try and improve growing in fields. But we're not, we're doing for going for the total controlled environment setting. Right. A true vertical farm. And we are finding that it works. But there's a feasibility issue around the product that we have to attend to to make sure that we can sustain the business going forward. And it's this thing, Harry of don't just grow it, do something with it. Right. Convert it, make it into something else to add value to the harvest. Because the harvest is a really expensive one unless you do something to it. So with our connections and what we know within retail, we took the decision that it's only really going to work if we go with a vertically integrated business as well. So we go end to end and produce garments. So we're going all the way to producing garments.

Harry Duran 00:11:25: Okay.

Simon Wardle 00:11:26: As a proof of concept. Right. And we'll break, we'll bring our own brand to market. We know how to do it. The big difference is I guess that yes, we're growing the cotton or we're going to be growing cotton in this scale up soon. We're in containers at the minute. It's working really nicely. Got some beautiful photographs today before it came on of a new harvest that's just developed under LEDs and all of that. Superb. But then we're going to be spinning our own cotton. So it's going straight from the farm into an adjacent building through a pipe into the spinning mill and we'll be producing cotton yarn. So we're not just growing the raw material, we're going to convert it. And with that we're then going to a third party supply chain to deliver product. Working with dyeing companies, weaving companies, fabrication companies, designers as a proof of concept. And we have good support from retail. Some big retailers are interested in what we're doing and one in the UK in particular is supporting us heavily, shall we say. And then once we prove that concept, we'll look for our first scale up, which is hopefully with another retail brand, whoever they might be. Right. And work with them to take it to market and then scale up even further with license agreements, et cetera, and build these things wherever they need to be. You know, 50,000 square meter farms is what we're kind of thinking of.

Harry Duran 00:12:44: Wow, that's hopefully lots to unpack there. I'm curious as you thought about this as an opportunity. You know, you were starting to work in vertical farming when you had that project with the architectural firm. Did you know the vertical farming market at the time or you were being introduced to it as you were working on this?

Simon Wardle 00:13:01: Being introduced to it, frankly, yeah, I knew of it, I knew what it was. But I'm only going back five or six years now to this moment where it was, you know, the jaw dropper. It was. Oh my goodness. Right. And it does all of this. Oh my. We got to get involved with that.

Harry Duran 00:13:14: Somehow, you know, and then a lot of the challenges that we've heard on this show are, you know, making the UNIT economics work and obviously the big expenditure is energy and just all, everything that's involved in running these facilities. So did you have some guidance people you could speak to who had been through this process to understand what it was you were getting into?

Simon Wardle 00:13:33: We're actually just making some contacts now. There's a thing, isn't there, in the industry where I don't think we all quite know who Brendan Foe are you do we? Who are your colleagues, who are your enemies, who are your competitor? Politician. But I've got to say one of the big farming companies in the UK has reached out to say, hey, if you need any help, which I thought was really magnanimous of them to do that. And we're picking up on that. We're in a no compete situation anyway, so, you know, there's nothing to win or lose on either side other than them sharing knowledge, which I thought was, you know, very generous of them to do that. We haven't had that conversation yet. We're about to do it, so we'll see how that goes. But yeah, it's been difficult really who to pick the phone up to. But we were lucky really that we found a kind of a white label contractor, if you like, that builds and has built Glass House and what have you for many, many years, you know, decades. And they've evolved into the manufacturing and installation and design of, you know, Total Control Environment packages as well. So we're working with people that have experience to design what we're going to be building ourselves. So yeah, we're okay, I think. But it's having that second opinion is what I would like more of, to be honest with you. And that's the conversation that we just started with the other guys in the.

Harry Duran 00:14:46: UK and you couldn't have picked a better time than 2020 to start a new business, right?

Simon Wardle 00:14:51: That didn't work out too well.

Harry Duran 00:14:54: And you know, how challenging was that?

Simon Wardle 00:14:56: It was like a long distance romance really. You know, the guys that were first doing the signs for us and with us were in Eindhoven and you know, they planted some seeds, we saw it grow, you know, electronically and it was, oh my goodness. The problem we had really was raising finance. We had an idea and an idea doesn't really do much unless it starts getting some, you know, blood in the veins kind of thing. Financial blood in the veins. And also talking about an idea doesn't cut it, does it? You've Got to prove that you mean it and put your own hand in your own pocket and get this thing going, which is what we ended up doing. So the guys in Eindhoven had a much more lucrative offer from an enormous corporation and they've built an enormous farm dedicated to, or it was dedicated to tomatoes and cucumber growing, that kind of thing. And it's beautiful, mind blowing, and they had to go their own way. So we ended up on our own without any science. That was the difficult thing. Yeah. But we resolved that, you know, two and a half years ago, was building a relationship with the University of Nottingham that have got a fantastic plant science department. Amazing farms, in fact.

Harry Duran 00:16:02: Sure.

Simon Wardle 00:16:03: We supplied them with our test labs, which are containers, three growing rooms, busy beavering away with our lab and using some of their own resources as well, so we can have a few experiments rolling along together. We're getting some excellent data, shall we say.

Harry Duran 00:16:19: Yeah, well, it seems like it was. There wasn't a lot of people doing this already because, you know, when you look at the history of, like, what's happened with greenhouses and leafy greens, there's decades of experience and research that's gone into this.

Simon Wardle 00:16:32: Right.

Harry Duran 00:16:32: I can't imagine there's anything equivalent for growing cotton indoors besides the examples you just mentioned. So where do you go for that information and how do you source that in a way where, you know, it's the key ingredient? Right. You need to figure this out if you are going to make a business out of this.

Simon Wardle 00:16:47: Yeah, well, that's what's been happening with the university, really, that, you know, you start with looking at the available data for infield growing so that you've got to start there.

Harry Duran 00:16:56: Right, yeah.

Simon Wardle 00:16:57: And start evaluating, you know, what goes on in field. So we started under glass, growing under glass. We saw, you know, density trials and what have you seen how the plants like to be. So you start with the data from the field, basically you plant in furrows like the field. And then we've tried changing combinations of setup and what have you and seeing quite significant differences in the results, to be fair, and then doing it under LED lights with, you know, trying at different ends of the spectrum, see what the results are there. But obviously when you bring the scientists to the table, that they've already got expectations. Right. They understand, they think they know what's going to happen and we go ahead and try and validate that. Right. And so far, so good. And we've destroyed a few plants at the same time. Right. Just because you can. But you've got to do. Right.

Harry Duran 00:17:42: I'm always curious about, like, thought process or the way leaders think when making big decisions like this. So coming into this new space and taking on the leadership role, you know, how do you think about building a team, you know, for something that you're moving into that's new for you? And I'm always curious, you know, how you think about, like, who the first hires should be in what direction to build a team. And obviously, a lot of that depends on what's coming in from a finance perspective.

Simon Wardle 00:18:06: Absolutely.

Harry Duran 00:18:06: But I'm just curious what your thoughts are in those early.

Simon Wardle 00:18:09: Well, I guess maybe we're a little bit different from others that you've spoken to in that we have this vertical solution to the product as well to consider. Right. So there's expertise at many milestones that, you know, I have an overall understanding of these things. I have lots of curiosity about these things, but true expertise in the relevant areas. We need to go and get that right. So it's about staging that. It's about understanding the timeline ahead of you and when start your search for key individuals that are going to, you know, fill the key roles as the business develops. But there's very much you've got to do it carefully. Right. To begin with, we can't just go employing lots and lots of people in the hope that this is going to work out. We've got to find a way to make it work with our own energy and resources, which is kind of what we're doing at the moment. Right. So, you know, we've employed the university, we have a team of people at the uni providing the information around the sciences. We're outsourcing expertise in terms of helping us design and deliver the pilot form that we're going to be producing in the coming year. And then there are key people in the directorship of the business that have different skill sets as well. You know, one of the guys is very much in property and understands what it takes to negotiate a property deal, shall we say, brand guys. You know, my partner Anders, is very, very strong in developing brands and that kind of work as well. So, you know, we've got that covered. So it's having a foundation of the basics to get yourself going, but always having an eye on the future and knowing that you need to get people better than yourself to fill those key roles as you start developing. My job is to find them people really.

Harry Duran 00:19:42: You know, it feels like you have additional challenges because normally, you know, you have people that are running farms, they're Coming at it maybe from a farming background. So they think like a farmer.

Simon Wardle 00:19:51: Right.

Harry Duran 00:19:51: Or if they're in the leadership position, you know, they hire a good farmer and they have to, you know, figure out the other moving parts of the team to make sure that everything gets out on time. You're producing a crop sustainable, sustainably and consistently. But now, you know, even if you have success on those two metrics, because you're creating a closed loop environment here where you're now taking the cotton and you're now creating and manufacturing goods for sale, that's another hat you have to wear because it's essentially like a manufacturer as well. And I wonder how you like, managed to kind of shift between the different responsibilities that you have. And is it just a function of finding the key people in those roles and letting them run with it to some extent?

Simon Wardle 00:20:33: Yeah, I think. Well, very much so, yeah. When you find the key people that are real experts, of course you let them run with it. Yeah. Why would you want to hold them back? But I think that there's the unexplored pieces that are in that supply chain, the things that haven't been done before. Right. People have grown cotton before, people have spun cotton before, but I don't think anyone's. I might be wrong, actually, but I haven't found an example yet where they're literally one feed in the other. You know, there's no ginning the cotton to be done, there's no baling of the cotton to be done. It's just moving the lint from one room to another room is all we've got to do. Right. The miles travels of a T shirt, you know, from 40,000 miles to 400 miles if we sell them in London, right, With our network that we're setting up, colossal change in that. So actually making that transition from the harvest. Mr. Gin, we don't think we need that, but we need a version of it. We need to get the seeds out. Right. But the cleaning, the cotton is very clean. With the test we've been doing, there's not a lot of trash, as they call it, in the cotton that needs cleaning out. Yes, there's some cleaning to be done, but not as heavily as the industry has to do it these days. Right. So there's all this area of the crossover that's yet to be invented, frankly. But actually when you start piecing it together and maybe this is the design thinking that we do, it doesn't feel daunting. It's kind of all been done before. It's just Piecing it together differently and putting it back together in a slightly different way or whatever, you know, so it's entirely doable. I have no fear in that at all. And we know the concept of what we're going to try to do and we understand the engineering needs re engineering to make it happen. And hey, we'll have another patentable piece of our unique licensable products. You know, at the end of it.

Harry Duran 00:22:15: I guess you're reinventing the supply chain for cotton manufacturing and rethinking it as well, because you have to. There's pieces of it that aren't. If you assume you no longer need to transport the cotton that's been picked into bales and pack it and ship it and, you know, all these things we just take for granted have to happen in open field ag, you know, you're really having to go back to the drawing board saying, do we really, you know, what can we remove from this process to shorten that distance travel? As you will, that's people talking.

Simon Wardle 00:22:44: And with every one of those processes, especially the more aggressive ones of ginning, which is, you know, it's opening the cotton and getting all the detritus out of that, you're actually, you're pulling on and you're cutting the fibers and you're spoiling the quality in the end, right? So the more of that we can cut out, the less damage we do to the fiber and the more, you know, we can maintain the, the quality of what we grow. So there's lots of good reasons to do it. Energy use, you know, shortening miles traveled, improving the quality and making a unique setup, really.

Harry Duran 00:23:16: And how much of it is of the technology are you using? Is robotics, AI any of the new technologies now? Are they helping?

Simon Wardle 00:23:24: So we expect we will, but we're not there yet, Franklin. We're still in the containers and we're going to begin building the pilot in the coming year. And there are still a number of unknowns and some known unknowns as well, right? Oh, that old chestnut. So we've got to be careful. So we're not going to go diving in with full overblown design of something that we've seen work elsewhere that might not be quite right for us. We're going to evolve, right? So we're going to build the basics with some automation and some manual systems still in there, but some automation. Yes. We're under LEDs. We're probably not going to stack to begin with as well until we're sure that we're getting the right results. And we understand more about the plan, how height and things like that. We know what we're trying to do. With a plant height, we're going to be. We're seeing some good success as well, with temperature and light affecting plant height in the way that we want it to do. Those stacks are going to be. But they will follow. Right. That's part of the R and D that we're going to be doing. Just to perfect that before we then scale up again. Right. So, yes, the intention is to introduce AI robotics. All of it. Right.

Harry Duran 00:24:29: Yeah.

Simon Wardle 00:24:29: You know, and see what we can do with it. But let's start with the basics, really, to ensure that we're growing effectively and good quality and quickly and all of those other good things that we need to do.

Harry Duran 00:24:41: How big's the team now?

Simon Wardle 00:24:43: Gosh, not that big, really. There are seven of us at the moment. Eight soon. Nearly eight. But, yeah, not many.

Harry Duran 00:24:51: How has your leadership approach evolved over the past four years?

Simon Wardle 00:24:56: Whoa. Has it? I don't believe it has. I'm in a situation that has fully energized me.

Harry Duran 00:25:06: Yeah.

Simon Wardle 00:25:06: And I think people that are working with me are enjoying the energy. I think I might be wrong. You know, interview them, see what they say. But there is a momentum around the excitement at the moment. That is. It seems to be, you know, it's just honest, isn't it? Honest energy. And people seem to enjoy that and gravitate to it. But, yeah, honesty, I think, is the key thing at the moment. You know, not at the moment. Sorry, that sounds terrible, doesn't it? Always honest. Right. But, you know, honest about where we're at, what we're doing, what we don't know. Right. You know, Steve, people talking about, you know, this T shirt only use this number of liters of water to produce. It's an idea, it's a concept. Right. We don't know yet. Right. But we do know that growing in a vertical farming setting is going to use a heck of a lot less water than is being used in fields. A massive amount less water than being used in fields. That's all we really know.

Harry Duran 00:25:55: Yeah.

Simon Wardle 00:25:56: So we're quite happy to tell people we will use a lot less water. I can't tell you how much yet because we've not got the data, we've not done it. But as soon as we do, we'll let everybody know, you know, and how.

Harry Duran 00:26:06: Are you addressing the challenges that have, you know, plagued some of the vertical farms in the past? You know, just concerns about energy and access to energy.

Simon Wardle 00:26:14: Yeah. So the Pilot facility that's in design at the moment does include an off grid energy package. But the questions around it still remain about the geography of where we're actually going to build. So we've got three locations that are under consideration and negotiation at the minute.

Harry Duran 00:26:29: Yeah.

Simon Wardle 00:26:30: And dependent on those locations will determine the final ability for us to provide that full off grid package. It might be that we can't entirely go off grid or it might be in one of the sites. We believe that the wind availability will be really significant and help, you know, so we've got to understand the different types of energy production that are around us that we can introduce to this. And battery storage, of course, and all the rest of it. We know what kind of energy we need, obviously and it's an expensive piece to put in there, but you've got to do it, I think. And that's part of what we're trying to do is improve the R and D around that as well so that we can, you know, and there are companies that are specializing obviously in those solutions. We have a lot of experience of high voltage with some of the electric vehicle companies that we work with in the architectural business. So we're exposed to a lot of high voltage kind of solutions, which is kind of fortunate, right? Yeah, that's helpful and that's helping us with the design of what we need to produce. So we're going to be as awkward as we can, is the answer to that. And we hope that it will be 100% off grid with a bit of luck.

Harry Duran 00:27:38: What's a tough question you've had to ask yourself recently?

Simon Wardle 00:27:41: A tough question I've had to ask myself recently about this project or in life. I don't know. A tough question. Do you know what often the answer might be? Oh, can I do this? I'm not asking that question yet. I know I can. It's absolutely pulling me along. It's a funny thing about this project that I feel it's fallen onto my lap and I'm responsible to deliver it somehow. It kind of a weird thing and that gives me a momentum of absolute confidence that we're doing it and it's happening and it's going in the right direction. So a question I might ask myself is what am I doing about keeping my ego in check? Because I didn't used to have one and I feel like I might be developing one a little bit so I need to be careful with that. So, yeah, that's maybe food for thought.

Harry Duran 00:28:30: I think a healthy ego is always helpful to an Extent, sometimes to get the work done right. And then to your point, having a balance is always just as important.

Simon Wardle 00:28:38: I believe so, yeah. I believe.

Harry Duran 00:28:40: Yeah.

Simon Wardle 00:28:41: I have, you know, people that will keep my feet firmly on the ground if they should start lifting off it. I'm sure of that.

Harry Duran 00:28:47: Yeah. I mean, it's interesting that feeling that you've. Since you've been placed in this moment in time and that, you know, because of your experience and because of all the pieces coming in this perfect storm of events that have happened, somehow you find yourself as the one that's leading this and you look around to see anyone has picked up the mantle and no one has. And you're like, well, I guess this specific project has been assigned to me kind of.

Simon Wardle 00:29:10: Yeah. I mean, it's not just me. Let's not say that I'm the guy that's delivering it all. You know, I have a partner in this as well, Andres, that's doing his piece in it as well. But he. It's a combined kind of feeling. He has the same sensation, I believe that we've somehow been given this mantle or this torch to carry and we've got to go and do something with it. It is really weird, but that's again, it's energizing, really.

Harry Duran 00:29:32: It's always. Must feel good to take part in almost like a movement where you're shaking up an industry.

Simon Wardle 00:29:36: Right.

Harry Duran 00:29:37: You know, and even within vertical farming, the shaking up the, you know, the centuries old practice of like creating garments from cotton.

Simon Wardle 00:29:43: Right.

Harry Duran 00:29:44: Like, you know, that's something that's probably ripe for disruption.

Simon Wardle 00:29:46: Yeah. In the same way that farming is generally. Right. Yeah. And alphabetical farming is doing all those great things to change and there's always resistance to change. And we're kind of mindful of the fact that the cotton industry is a very large and well established black hole of who's who. And, you know, I'm sure there'll be people that support us, but there'll be people that want to stop us at the same time. You know, I'm quite sure of that once we start making our mark, but we just got to get ahead of that as much as we can, really.

Harry Duran 00:30:12: Well, it sounds like you came on my radar probably because of the recent wave of PR that you've done. And I think that's starting. You could probably speak to this more, but it's starting to generate some results and I imagine you're having more exposure than you had this time last year.

Simon Wardle 00:30:26: Well, it's my first podcast, Harry, but yeah, there's been a few interviews, I've got to say. And yeah, there's a lot of interest around what we're trying to do and for the most part, all of it at the moment, it's been very supportive and you know, everybody's saying way to go and keep it up kind of thing. So, yeah, we're quite happy. But yeah, the PR campaign we did was pretty damn good, actually. Yeah, the results were much better than I believed they were going to be.

Harry Duran 00:30:47: So, yeah, yeah, got on our radar for sure. So let's say we're having this conversation a year from now. What would need to have happened in the past 12 months for you to be happy with your progress A year from now?

Simon Wardle 00:31:00: We need to be. Not knee deep in mud. No, we'll be on that stage. We need to be fitting out the new build. So it'll be a new construction that we're putting up. We need to be well underway with fitting that out with the farming equipment, beginning the construction of the spinning mill that needs to be starting. So that certainly needs to be where we need to be and also into the breeding program that we're starting as well. The gene editing that we're going to be looking at to. For the improvements and what have you that we need to do with creating our own variety of cotton, I guess is what we're aiming at, not I guess we are.

Harry Duran 00:31:36: And how are the certifications in the uk Because I know if I think about it from the state's perspective, you know, there's a big push for organic cotton and obviously there's trade organizations that determine how and when you can use that label. And I'm curious if there's anything similar or what uphill battles you're fighting for labeling.

Simon Wardle 00:31:54: You know, I don't know yet. Right. And that's the truth. Awful lot of certifications, organizations all nobly trying to keep, you know, the sustainability flag flying and do the best. And it's true, they're doing the best within the constraints of what the industry will allow them to do. And then there are other organizations that maybe are trying to capitalize on, you know, bring it through me, you know, filter all the attention through me and I'll skim some money out of the deal kind of thing. So there's all manner of everything that's going on around cotton. Everyone's trying everything. I have a particular aversion to organic that I maybe shouldn't talk about and just generally infields cotton, you know, so the industry is full of, you know, some disingenuous Some well meaning organizations and others are out there as most industries and they are right. And one of the reasons, and this is all part of the thinking process, early on it was, well, how are we going to get around these things? We need to spit our own cotton. So there was, right. So you know, the first port of call for being controlled by the man, so to speak, in traditional farming terms for cotton is when you bail the cotton and the guy from the local authority comes along and he tears a sample off and he takes you to the lab and he'll tell you.

Harry Duran 00:33:08: Yeah.

Simon Wardle 00:33:08: How good it is, how bad it is and how much money you're going to get for it. After all your effort, that's the moment that you know what the quality and value of your cotton is going to be and whether you're going to eat this year or not. In some cases, right, maybe I'm being extreme, but in some cases for sure. So what we realized, I think Harry early on was, well, that guy right there, it could be friend or foe. And if he's foe, right. If he's. I don't want to suggest that this goes on in any industry, but if he's in some way controlled by somebody, right, he's going to say, oh, your quality is crap and you know, it's worth nothing and nobody should use it even if it's bang on. Right. So we said, how do we avoid that? Let's just spin the cotton and take it to another level and keep going until really the only accreditation we need is to make sure that the manufactured standard of the garment is suitable for sale. Right. So we have standards we've got to achieve there, but we're kind of going to be setting our own standard of cotton quality in amongst it. Right. And good on us, I think, for trying to do it that way. But you know, there's all, there's the economic reasons, there's the supply chain reasons. There are many reasons for bringing this thing together, but one of them was to avoid that being blocked by an industry that might not take kindly to us when we come along with an alternative to what they're currently doing. Right, yeah.

Harry Duran 00:34:27: In true disruptive fashion, I suppose.

Simon Wardle 00:34:30: Right.

Harry Duran 00:34:30: Well, I understand your point. There's a lot of people who, you know, are those gatekeepers and you know, have a vested interest in keeping things status quo. But it's always been like that way for centuries, probably longer.

Simon Wardle 00:34:41: But I think it's important and as.

Harry Duran 00:34:43: You were speaking to that, I can almost see the, an opportunity for a model that's a new model for farmers, you know, it's a new model for farmers that maybe there is a way to create a new pathway to profitability that's not dependent on a rubber stamp from someone that might have, you know, a vested interest in not stamping, you know. So it's interesting, and I don't know if you've thought that far ahead, but like, this idea of true, you know, whatever the word is, sovereignty, you know, from a farmer's perspective about, you know, what to do with the crop in a way that you have more control over and you're not beholden, you know, to just old ways of doing things. I think it's really exciting.

Simon Wardle 00:35:19: I wonder. Yeah. And I guess that to some extent is what the old cooperatives did many, many years ago, where farmers came together to say, no, screw you, we'll sell our milk, actually. And they come together and find a way to do it. So, you know, it's not unique that we're trying to find a way to do it for ourselves as well, I suppose. And there's inspiration in history, isn't there, for all these things like that.

Harry Duran 00:35:39: Exciting times ahead. I really am grateful for you making the time to share, especially having this insight into an industry that's as old as, you know, it's probably any of the old trades that you can think of, you know, Cotton Coast.

Simon Wardle 00:35:50: Absolutely.

Harry Duran 00:35:51: It is, I'm sure, to Silk Road days as well. So it's been exciting. Yeah, yeah.

Simon Wardle 00:35:56: It's coming home, Harry. That's what we're doing. We're bringing it back to England. Although we've never grown cotton in England, but the, you know, the cotton industry was enormous, obviously, in the north of England. Many, many. Well, a couple of hundred years ago or more. So.

Harry Duran 00:36:08: And this is exciting, I'm sure, to be able to say that you actually grew the cotton in England and this is a UK product, and to really have some pride in having something that's sourced locally, grown locally, you know, manufactured locally. And, you know, there's definitely, you know, I know we see that pride here sometimes in the States with Made in the usa, and I'm sure it's the same there, you know, and it's nice to have that.

Simon Wardle 00:36:28: It is, really. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of made in England, but actually grown in England when it comes to cotton. It is a unique thing, and I guess that's why we've really focused on doing it here first. We don't want to be restricted to the UK borders, though, once we get going, we want to build these things wherever they need to be built and scale, scale, scale, and see what we can do about, you know, turning. Helping the climate, turn it around somewhat, be part of that movement to try and make a difference there.

Harry Duran 00:36:54: What has been your engagement or interaction with folks in the vertical farming space? I know it's still early days, obviously, you know, we're happy to share your story on this show, but have you made your. Or the team made your way to any of the indoor farming conferences? Have you started?

Simon Wardle 00:37:07: Yeah, I went to one last year and met some real interesting folks and, you know, supportive and what have you. I think there's the supply chain within vertical farming that's well represented there as well, and lighting suppliers, you know, electric connection suppliers and you name it, all manner of people in there and within it as well. There's those that have built the farms already and those that are planning them too. So it's an interesting bunch and varied, you know, personnel that seems to exist in the industry as with any really. But, yeah, I hope to get to know them better in the coming months and years as we really get stuck.

Harry Duran 00:37:42: In the big events. We're heading over to Indoor Icon, which is in Las Vegas. That's usually the big one that's been around years as well. And then that's in March, first week of March, in Las Vegas as well. Yeah, yeah.

Simon Wardle 00:37:54: So, all right. And the excuse to go to Vegas.

Harry Duran 00:37:56: Yeah, if you're there, I'll be there. So, Simon, I like to leave some time towards the end of these conversations in the spirit of this Open Forum collaboration, as we sort of alluded to early on, because to some extent it does work and there are people within this space that do talk to each other, but there is that sort of, you know, keep it close to the vest, don't release, you know, the secret sauce, if you will. And I'm just trying to, you know, let us.

Simon Wardle 00:38:20: Yeah.

Harry Duran 00:38:21: Remind everyone that's listening. You know, a lot of your colleagues listen to this show as well. So is there any thoughts you have for the controlled environment space, indoor farming space? You're new, relatively new to the space, and you're starting to meet some of the folks that are involved. But, you know, from what you've seen and what's been your experience so far, is anything that you think would be more helpful for some of this collaborative work we're trying to do here?

Simon Wardle 00:38:42: It's really difficult, isn't it? Because obviously Eve and I, you know, we're trying to evolve our own ip, right. We have a solution that's unique and we need investors to help us deliver it. And investors aren't going to be overly pleased if you start sharing all your secret sauce all over the Internet. Right. And that's. It's kind of damn, wouldn't it be nice if it could be different? And I guess there are experiences that can be shared that aren't IP rich in any way and can be shared openly. And, you know, you don't want to do that, mate. It doesn't work kind of thing, you know, and why it doesn't work would be kind of helpful. You know, I guess it's that really it's about, you know, having open forums to be able to share the do's and don'ts of the things that are not protected. Right. But there are lots of mistakes that can be made that don't need to be made. And if only somebody would say, yeah, don't try that, try this instead, that'd be cool. If there could be more of that would be really good.

Harry Duran 00:39:40: I think what you find and what I've seen is inevitably when you go to the conferences, as people like to get value from the content, which is always good. It's always the hallway conversations or the pints at the pub after the show. And like, it's really when everyone's got their guard down, you know, that's over the years from the podcasting world and now in the indoor farming space. I see that, you know, some of the best conversations I've had have been after hours, if you will.

Simon Wardle 00:40:02: They always are. You know, my whole career was built on standing in bars and smoking cigarettes. Not that I smoked cigarettes anymore, but, you know, being with the right person at the right time to have that relaxed conversation was really beneficial, you know.

Harry Duran 00:40:15: Yeah. Well, I hope that leads to more relaxed conversations and it's an invite to anyone that's watching or listening, so.

Simon Wardle 00:40:21: Absolutely. Yeah, I love that.

Harry Duran 00:40:22: Appreciate being able to connect with your team to get this organized. And I was excited just to learn more about what's happening in your world. And it's exciting to see new innovations and new crops in the indoor farming space. And it sounds like all roads have led to you doing this and for you, you know, helping to lead the charge on this. So I appreciate you coming on and sharing your story with my audience.

Simon Wardle 00:40:42: Thank you, Harry, it's been lovely. Thanks for a nice conversation and happy Thanksgiving.

Harry Duran 00:40:47: Yeah, thank you so much. We'll send folks, we'll get the links in the show notes that you sent over. Good-drop.com anywhere else you want to have folks reach out to connect with you.

Simon Wardle 00:40:57: LinkedIn is always good.

Harry Duran 00:40:58: Okay, we'll make sure.

Simon Wardle 00:40:58: Find me on that.

Harry Duran 00:40:59: Yeah, we'll have your profile there as well. Thanks for your time.

Simon Wardle 00:41:01: That'll be great. All right, take care.