Alexander Jaworski - Building a Sustainable Future: GreenHub Systems

Harry Duran [00:00:00]: So we always like to place these episodes somewhere on the map. So where are you calling in from this evening?

Alexander Jaworski [00:00:07]: I'm calling in from Leipzig, Germany. So for everyone that has been in Germany, I think it's quite obvious where it is. Otherwise, if you are not familiar, it's in our south of Berlin. Great Sweden city, so great place to be.

Harry Duran [00:00:21]: And did you grow up there?

Alexander Jaworski [00:00:23]: I grew up not too far away from Leipzig, actually. A small town, 30,000 citizens, 45 minutes away. I tried to escape. I lived in Australia for a while. I lived in Latin America for a while, but came back, gave it another chance and yeah, I am.

Harry Duran [00:00:41]: What brought you back?

Alexander Jaworski [00:00:42]: It was just before COVID when I came back and I've been outside of Europe for one and a half years and I was sort of feeling, I need another challenge. And I couldn't find it where I was. And I was like, okay, they give Germany another chance. My family is here, so it was good to see them. And then, yes, sort of the vertical farming topic came up and that has been five years now. And since then I'm living in Leipzig.

Harry Duran [00:01:08]: What was your first introduction to vertical farming? Hydroponics, agriculture. Because I imagine when you were in university this probably wasn't something that might have been on your radar.

Alexander Jaworski [00:01:19]: Actually, it was the first time in university when I heard about it. So my co founder, Kyle and I, we met in university and he was always passionate about aquaponics, hydroponics. So we met through a mutual friend and then one time he was like, oh, so have you heard about it? It's like, nah, not really because my family has a background in agriculture, but predominantly fiat agriculture, a little bit of greenhouse, but. So I was always like, I never want to be part of the agricultural sector. I don't want to get involved. But yeah, then he got me into the topic. We had a few conversations. So I was actually in university about, I think now, nine years ago.

Harry Duran [00:01:58]: What's your earliest memory of food? You know, you mentioned your family was involved in agriculture. I'm curious, when you think back, what was your relationship or with food or homegrown food or fresh food?

Alexander Jaworski [00:02:11]: Yeah, so when I was small, my family, we always had good food on the table. I need to admit my mom was a very good chef, so it was quite delicious what she cooked. And we had this small little garden in front of the house. So we've been growing a few tomatoes, we've been growing cucumber, a little bit of herbs. So we've been doing that. But back then I wasn't really into it. So basically all I did when I was small, I played football or soccer. So growing food wasn't that important to me. But definitely since my parents worked also in agriculture, they put a little bit of emphasis on that. So yeah, it was always a topic, but not until university, where it really was important to me and really felt like, okay, there is a topic, I should look more into it.

Harry Duran [00:02:54]: And yeah, so you mentioned that your parents were in agriculture, yet you decided not to go down that path. Was it something that you saw growing up about maybe how hard it was or the challenges they faced?

Alexander Jaworski [00:03:08]: So my dad, he works with a fertilizer company, so he's distributing fertilizers all over Europe. That wasn't really the topic because, yeah, chemical fertilizers, if you look into the topic, yeah, the topic doesn't have too many positives. So basically just doing a little bit of research. We were always a little bit hesitant. My mom was consulting farmers back then, told me some stories about farmers, like they tried to cheat a few numbers here and there, so they just want to keep doing what they were doing. So my view on agriculture wasn't the best. It wasn't something where people want to innovate, where people really want to move boundaries for the positive. So it was always like, we've done it that way, so let's keep it that way. So that was my earliest sort of understanding of agriculture. That's why I said, look, interesting that you did it or you do it, but it's nothing for me, not for me.

Harry Duran [00:04:05]: So until university. So what was it about? What your schoolmate was talking to you about hydroponics, because he must have said something to you that got you interested and wanted you to learn more.

Alexander Jaworski [00:04:16]: So he basically wanted to build an aquaponic farms in Magdeburg, so that's close by Leipzig. So that was part of his master thesis as well. And he was just really passionate about it. He was like, look, you can build those circular systems, you can reuse the nutrients that get dissolved in water from the fish and then you build those circular system, it's really sustainable. And my emphasis was always building sort of sustainable solutions, building something that is for the better, that also has potential in the future. It's not great from the beginning, but it will evolve into something that can be of great benefit, not just for Germany, for Europe, but it can be placed in all parts of the world. So this was something I think is also commitment to the topic that was kind of inspiring. I did work at a bank before, so When I was also in university and we financed renewable energy. So the topic of sustainability, renewable systems, how can we sort of build holistic approaches, that was sort of something that was interesting to me. But then it took a while, I need to admit. So it wasn't right from the start, was like, okay, you got me, I'm in it. Because he called me when I was in Latin America and then he told me about the project he has in Leipzig about vertigo farming, indoor farming. And he asked me, since we talked about it, you sort of were a little bit excited about it. So now we have a project. Do you want to join? And that was the point where I was like, okay, fair enough, let me come back and then let's do that.

Harry Duran [00:05:44]: It must have been a good offer to get you to leave Latin America.

Alexander Jaworski [00:05:48]: Oh, absolutely not, to be honest. A shitty payment, to be honest. The funny situation was we started out working in a room with the caretaker of the university complex. So it was basically the three of us. His desk was as big as our desk, and we had this small, tiny corner where we could build the first aquaponics system. So vertical farming system with a fish tank underneath. So actually, the situation wasn't great. It was just the situation that I was in looking for a project. And then I think it was sort of a calling that he called me was like, hey, look, now we could do something about it. I wasn't happy in the place I was at, so I think it was just happy coincidence in the end.

Harry Duran [00:06:30]: What was your experience in Latin America like?

Alexander Jaworski [00:06:33]: So from the food topic, great. Just the diversity of food, the spices, just the richness in food. So from that perspective, really, really great. So I was just. After uni, I was leaving Germany to find a place where I would like to stay for a little longer. And since I didn't speak a single word of Spanish when I went to Latin America, so everything I was able to say was hola. So that was all. So at the beginning, it was a little bit rough just to get immersed into the culture, because I think if you don't speak the language, you always miss out a little bit. So I had to learn. But yeah, met great people. Some family was kind enough to let me stay at their place for a month. So I was really immersed in the culture. So the experience was great. Just with the, I think, lack of work experience I also had back then, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. Yeah, I was just looking for myself somehow. Looking for a place where I could just really just get into A topic, a project to really start out. And yeah, back then I couldn't find it. Now looking back at the time, I think there were a couple of opportunities. I just didn't see them back then, but don't want to complain. I think now being in the vertical farming sector, working in company that is providing us one of a solution I think is also a great opportunity.

Harry Duran [00:07:55]: Where in Latin America were you?

Alexander Jaworski [00:07:57]: So I started out in Mexico, then went to. Yeah. Guatemala, Belize, Costa Rica, then I did Panama, I did Ecuador, Colombia and Peru.

Harry Duran [00:08:10]: Wow, you definitely covered a lot of Latin America.

Alexander Jaworski [00:08:14]: Yeah, yeah. And the funny part is the language is once you learned it in Costa Rica, for example, then you moved to Panama, you moved to Colombia and they used different words again. So. So everything you've learned, basically you need to learn a complete new vocabulary.

Harry Duran [00:08:29]: Yeah. So now you're back in the office, away from the sunny beaches of Latin America, in this office, trying to make this aquaponics business work. You know, you had, you mentioned you'd have a little background in banking and probably some in business development. So talk to me where you are at this point and how you're thinking about making this a business.

Alexander Jaworski [00:08:50]: So back in the office I was the idea that my co founder Kai sort of came up with at the UNI project, he said, look, we're going to build a system for the private consumer, so B2C business, we're going to build an aquaponics system into everyone's kitchen, into their living room, standalone solution. I was like, ah, it sounds great. And then if you just hear about it, it always sounds great until you get into the nitty gritty parts of the business. And we had the, I would say fortunate situation that we had a company in Germany back then, Reusion, they've built a small sort of fridge size system. Right. And they were quite great to learn from because they've built a system that was more suited for the market back then. I would say it was cheaper and so we were a little bit able to learn. What are they doing currently? What's the marketing strategy? How do they get into the market? So we were able to learn and learn and learn and then we realized eventually, okay, they are not able to really pick off the ground. So I think in total they sold 600 systems I think. But the business didn't really get started. They had a big cooperation with Miele, so we were able sort of to learn from that. And being naive starting the first business, we're like, okay, but we can do it better. Let's do that. But yeah, we had to quickly realize, going to expos, going to events, presenting the first prototype we have built, just the price point customers wanted to pay was somewhere around €2,000. Back then, the system we've built would have cost at least €10,000. So just the difference in pricing was just immense. And then also for us, sustainability was always a big part of the business we wanted to build. We did a life cycle analysis or life cycle assessment. And we realized looking at the German energy grid, looking at the energy consumption, we don't really get to a point where we see a benefit compared to organic produce we can currently buy in the supermarket or field produce, just carbon footprint is just way higher than what we see with produce that is available and it's widely available, not just for sort of a small niche market, premium market. And then we said, okay, let's maybe not build a greenwashing product, maybe let's focus on having a bigger impact. And this is where we slowly pivoted then from a B2C product into a B2B product that we are now building. And also focusing more on research, because research is still heavily enthusiastic, I would say, about vertical farming, because they can really look for every small detail, what to change in cultivation, what to change in genes. So it's quite an interesting field to be in.

Harry Duran [00:11:38]: So for the listeners and the viewers who are not familiar with GreenHub, can you give an overview of where the business is now and what the current offerings are?

Alexander Jaworski [00:11:46]: Yeah, absolutely. So with the backstory I explained, we came up with a system called the Green Researcher and it's a plug and play system for research. Basically you get a mini vertical farm. It fits into every climate chamber, every sort of infrastructure, and it also comes with the software and analysis tools. So basically you can track the data and you can make sense of the data with the software you get and really understand if I change a certain factor, let's say the lighting, what effect is it going to have on my plant growth? And if I change the nutrients as well, then to really understand how can we get to the more efficient growing everyone is looking for. So this is what we currently offer. We work with research partners, universities, also a couple of industry partners on that. And this is sort of our go to market strategy that we've been doing since May 2023. So we incorporated the company from the research project into the game B in Germany. So an actual entity in 2023. And this is what we've been doing so far. But this is sort of the first step for us in the business model, because learning with our customers, especially with R and D customers, they bring the newest insights on how to make growing more efficient, on which seeds, for example, they're currently working, which seeds they're breeding, what do they want to bring to the market in the next two to three years? So already learning how to cultivate those new varieties, how to bring the cultivation strategies to the farmer that's eventually going to use the seeds, that's going to use the new nutrients, for example, and give them insights on how to automate their growing. This is what we want to do and this is what we're working for every day.

Harry Duran [00:13:33]: So for when you're working with prospects, people that are looking at your solution, who's a good fit for the researcher? You know, if you think about, like, who this is for, who this is not for, you know, when you're thinking about people who would have the most success working with the Green Hub researcher. Yep. How do you think about that and talk a little bit about those early conversations you have with people.

Alexander Jaworski [00:13:54]: Yeah. So a good fit is research institutes that are working on breeding. So this is what we've seen as the best fit so far. We see sea breeders as a good fit. So everyone that wants to sort of develop a product that is suited for different cultivation systems in Vertigo Farm, because we don't have a standard yet, they want to test for different conditions, they want to test for different lighting, for different nutrient settings, for different climate conditions. So everyone that's working on product development, sort of early qualification of their product, is it functioning as planned or is there sort of further research, further development that needs to be done? So this is what we currently focus on and where we see the biggest benefit. Because it's not for commercial farmers that want to test certain cultivation strategies. I think, therefore, we build different solutions. But the green researcher, the system itself is not the right product. The conversations we have touching on that is mainly we see research institutes that we see research facilities that have been built about 20 years ago. Also more focusing on greenhouse looking, on indoor farming on one layer they've used. Yeah. Still using old tech and now they want to upgrade, they want to really see, okay, how can we go with the trend? How can we sort of step up our research work? And therefore, since they also have individual software solutions for all the little systems they currently use, they're looking to get everything in one place. So they look for a platform basically where they can do the research, where they can start store data and where they can also analyze the Data. And this is what we look for, this is what we also focus on in our customer journey.

Harry Duran [00:15:44]: What's been your experience attending these conferences? Because I saw that recently at Vertifarm and actually you had a response to one of their posts about the viability of leafy greens. So maybe you can talk about that as well.

Alexander Jaworski [00:15:55]: Yeah, so going to those events, those exposure, I don't know, on the one hand side, I'm really positive about it because I think it's a good connection of the industry. You meet people, you can talk about certain business cases, you can talk about latest developments. But what I'm missing is the farmers. So the farm operators. I missed this conversation that we need to have as an industry with the people that are supposed to use the tech and not sort of as we did in the past, where we had in Farm Calera, where we had Aerofarm. So all the big players that wanted to build their farms set up in different locations. I think what we now want to do is seeing the current trend of the industry. We want to enable the greenhouse farmer to adapt to vertical farming tech. We want to see, for example, in Germany we have a wide variety of farmers that were. They kept sheep, they kept cows and pigs and all of that. So the staples, they are now empty because they're not producing the volumes anymore. So they are looking for business cases, how to adapt, how to sort of also move into vertical farming, into mushroom cultivation. So I'm missing those conversations at the expos because it's mostly industry talking to industry and one tech company explaining the other tech company why their tech is a little bit better. We're not free from that. Don't get me wrong, we also do that. But I think what we need is sort of this connection of the people that are the next generation of vertical farmers with the industry and also give feedback. What is viable, what is not viable when it comes to sort of retrofitting their current infrastructure.

Harry Duran [00:17:36]: Talking about the future of the industry and education that's needed. You were invited to Elipsek University earlier this year. I'm curious what that experience was like, especially when you're talking to people and students who were in the same position you were probably years ago, you know, trying to understand what this industry is like. What's the future of vertical farming? What was that experience like for you?

Alexander Jaworski [00:17:59]: It's always great to see the initial reactions of young students when you talk to them about vertical farming, because most of them haven't heard about it, to be honest. So it's still a Niche, specifically in Germany. So talking to them about, look, you can grow food wherever, whenever. You just need to build a viable case around it. So basically you can grow tomato, you can grow strawberries, you can grow if you want to. I think IGS has done a good project about potatoes. So you can basically grow whatever you want to grow. So they get fascinated about that. And then just talking to them that farming doesn't need to be on the field, you don't need to get your hands dirty somewhere on a multiple acre field. You can do that all in a controlled environment. You can use AI, you can use software to automate the whole process. You can really get into the nitty gritty understanding of what the plant actually needs. And this is always great to see in students once you lose a few of them, to be honest, because they're like, ah, farming, it doesn't matter if it's in the field. If it's controlled environment, don't care about it. But quite a lot of them really get excited and we've also seen as software developers actually to get them really excited about the topic because most of them actually want to do something with a purpose. They want to get involved with projects where they can really put their effort into. So talking to them at Leipzig University also is quite a pleasure.

Harry Duran [00:19:26]: And then you also had the opportunity to go outside. You had the innovation day as well where you sort of. I saw that you did a blog post about your experience, experience talking to people who are doing actual traditional agriculture as well. What was that like? And marrying those two worlds together, that's.

Alexander Jaworski [00:19:42]: Still tricky, to be honest, because those innovation days, they were more focused on there is a new tractor out there and maybe we can highlight that one. So it's really good to be an educator in that sense because people, they hear the stories, they read sort of the newspaper. They read one blog post about the story of Infarm, about Calera and they were like, okay, Infarm, German company, we did it once, it will never work. So this is sort of where we pick up on those conversations. And I was fortunate enough to give a panel talk about AI and sort of the development it can have in indoor farming and vertical farming. At this event where all the farmers looked at me, was like, can we please talk about my new tech, my new tractor? I was like, nah, maybe we want to have a different conversation, bringing back some info or some insights from Singapore, where I've been before, and just be like, okay, so this is how other countries are seeing the current food system. This is how they want to innovate, this is how they think about the technology will look like in 20 years. So what is your counter offer? Do you think we going to be just working on fields? Do you think greenhouses are part of the solution? Do you want to even go a step further? So this is really an education topic mostly just to get out there and be like, okay, it hasn't worked for some reasons, but that was one case. Let's look at niche markets, look at your individual infrastructure we can use and then step by step, I think we can build something that is promising for the future.

Harry Duran [00:21:21]: Do you think you were able to convince anyone or change any minds?

Alexander Jaworski [00:21:24]: Absolutely, yeah. So we've seen that people at early events where we went to that were quite conservative about the agricultural industry in Germany, that they now sort of pick up on it and be like, due to everything that happens with climate change, we had a lot of floodings this year in the summer also now in September in Europe, like maybe we need to adapt a little bit. It's not going to be the solution, but it's part of the solution sort of to move forward and to be more resilient. So mines are slowly changing, but as everything takes a little longer in Germany sometimes, so we just got to be patient. But we see that instead of convincing traditional farmers, there are a lot of non agricultural people that really want to start a vertical farm. So last week we had a company, they actually produce paint. So just paint for, yeah, rooms for houses. And they were like, yeah, we have this 400 square meters left in our production site. We have some heating that we can use. We have a climate system, we have every infrastructure in place. So how about vertical farming? Sounds promising. We want to sort of get into it, so let's have a discussion. So there's actually a lot of people that don't come from a background of agriculture. They don't see it as a black and white thing. They're like, oh, I heard about it, let's see, maybe it makes sense. Maybe let's see if there's also a distribution, sort of direct distribution that makes sense for us in this region. So this is also quite interesting at the moment.

Harry Duran [00:22:58]: So how do you think about this? You know, obviously as you're leading the company, you know, you have a limited amount of time during the day and being an entrepreneur myself, I know sometimes there's so many competing priorities. So when you get up in the morning and you think about where the best use, the focus of your time, of the company's time which opportunities make sense to go after because obviously there's a lot of lead time with these conversations and these projects and closing deals. So I'm just curious how you think about where's right now making sense for you to invest a lot of your energy.

Alexander Jaworski [00:23:31]: So it's definitely still the green researcher case. So the hardware that we've built, because this is sort of the fundamental work that we need to do for the long term vision of the company because the more data we collect now, the better the algorithms we can sort of develop for the long term vision to provide farmers with an automated cultivation strategy. Basically I think the better the company will work in the long run. So this is where the focus needs to be. But to already validate the second business model, once we get to the software that we could offer for vertical farm operators that don't have any background in vertical farming, just to give them a fair starting point where they can grow lettuce, a strawberry, a tomato without prior knowledge, but get a good result, get the yields that we calculated, that we anticipated. I think this is just really helpful to get an early understanding what is the solution that we need to build because in our heads we have a great team of engineers. If we let them engineer all day, every day, then the solution is over engineered. It's going to be brilliant, but maybe it doesn't fit the need of the customer. So it's sort of 60, 40, I would say 60% on the core business, the green researcher. Get the company up and started, really get the traction, get the revenue in and really build because that's also important in agriculture. Build a reference, build the brand that has a good reputation and build it with something people can touch. Because I think there's still a difference if you're a software company or if you are sort of also providing hardware. If you provide hardware, people can touch it, people can see okay, it's lasting, it's good quality and does work. And this is what we do with the first business case before. We then sort of have gained the trust hopefully and I'm quite optimistic about it, that we then can use it for the software solutions that we want to bring to the market.

Harry Duran [00:25:26]: How big is the team now?

Alexander Jaworski [00:25:29]: So we're currently 15 people that work on the vision, so it's still fairly small. But I think we don't want to do the mistakes of the past where we build teams that are too big and then we have sort of a burn rate that is too big and then if the sales are not coming as promised, funding situation in Europe is currently very tricky. So to get funded by VCs, by business angels, there has been easier times. So that's why I think keeping a really good team, a small team that can execute, that can also really bring value to customers. At the moment, I think it's. For now, it's a good step. Yeah.

Harry Duran [00:26:11]: How have you grown as a leader since starting the company?

Alexander Jaworski [00:26:16]: I would say quite a bit because I completely underestimated what it needs to be running a company to be a leader. Because initially I was like, okay, everyone that joins the team, I hired you because you're smart people, you are smarter than me in the individual areas you work in and I give you the trust you need and you execute. Okay, it does work. But you need to also form a team. People need to work together, they need to find small ways on how to communicate efficiently, how to get work done and also just to build a culture and atmosphere in the company. And this was something I didn't have on the radar for quite a bit at the beginning. So now my work shifted more to, okay, I need to be, I still need to be a translator, I still need to be sort of the servant leader. Simon Sinek I think is a great reference for that and really make sure that my team has the resources it needs to really build the products that we currently need and also long term vision and also build a great base for further development. So I think this is one of the key parts, I think communication wise. At the beginning I was like, okay, I just going to do it myself, don't worry, I just do it, you do something else. I don't have the capacity for that anymore. So now I need to sort of delegate a little bit and be more clear on the communication, what is actually priority number one, number two, number three, what needs to happen. So I think this is also something that I had to learn quite quickly because when I got angry, things weren't done in the time we sort of discussed. I think a lot of time it was just my fault to not communicate clear enough what is the main priority and what do we need as a key result to really move forward. So yeah, those are the ways I think I developed the most.

Harry Duran [00:28:11]: Did you have relationships with previous mentors or previous managers, kind of give you some guidance?

Alexander Jaworski [00:28:16]: So I had a mentor in Leipzig, so I went to an event that was meant to match with mentors that already started a couple of businesses. So he gave me quite good advice on what to focus on, especially in early steps, sometimes focus more on the team instead of My individual work and really sort of create this atmosphere, this culture that I want to see. Also the communication with my co founder, right? Because I was like, we both founded the company, so I think we are aligned on the vision where we want to go. But there's still a lot of communication that needs to happen. So you still. Because we don't always have the same meetings, we get different input. So there's still the possibility that sometimes every person wants to sort of shift or zigzag into a way that they see as valuable for the company. And I think every input makes sense, but then really align and be like, okay, what is the priority? Where do we need to focus on? How do we handle a situation? Xyz that was quite great from the mentor I had from Leipzig to give advice on that. And then there was sort of one person when I was in Australia and When was it? 2013. And I didn't realize it back at the time, but there was a person. I just lost my job sort of in Australia and sort of was thinking about going back home to Germany. And I just randomly bumped into this person. It was like, okay, so what do you need? Where do you need help? I was like, yeah, looking for a job. I like it. I don't want to leave, but if I don't have money anymore, what I'm supposed to do, so I need to do something that is rational at a certain point. And I was like, okay, so fair enough. If I give you one option, if I give you one opportunity, would you take it? It depends on what it is, but sure. It's like, okay, I get you into working at the cricket stadium in Sydney. So you work there, you do a couple of shifts, we see how it goes. It's good tip, it's good money. And then if you do it right, then I think your situation solved and then we see how it goes. He gave me this opportunity. It worked out. I had the best time of my life afterwards in Australia. So just being the person to give people the opportunity to see what they want to do. I didn't realize it back then. I didn't value enough what he did for me. But now I think this was a good life lesson.

Harry Duran [00:30:49]: Yeah, Give people the opportunity to demonstrate how hard they're willing to work. And sometimes people say they want help and then you give them the opportunity and they're like, no, that sounds too hard. Never mind. But it's, you know, really a test to see sometimes how people badly they want it and how willing they are to sort of you know, put themselves in a situation where they're in charge of their own destiny.

Alexander Jaworski [00:31:10]: Yep, absolutely. So there was great life lesson.

Harry Duran [00:31:13]: Yeah, yeah. So I'm curious if there's a hard question you've had to ask yourself recently.

Alexander Jaworski [00:31:20]: There is. So with all the news, I do follow everything. I think just at the beginning of this week, brewery, the news came out, they went bankrupt. And you ask yourself, is it worth it? Because you work in an industry where you have to educate a lot of people still on the benefits it can bring and you have to educate on, okay, those hyper scaling business cases that we've seen, because all of them, all the unicorns that we have or had in the industry struggle to really fulfill their promise or their vision that they wanted to do. Really stay positive about the industry with all the latest trends and be like, okay, we can still move forward. There is a reason why we started this. And you just got to believe in, you can build a better food system and you can build a better future. Not necessarily for the people in Germany, but for a global approach. So people in North Africa, Middle East, Singapore, Japan. So this is the reason why I got into the vertical farming industry. To be able to build something that you can reproduce in different markets, it needs the right approach, it needs a holistic approach to figure out all the small details. But this is sort of what I asked myself recently. But then we had positive news in the company. We have a great team to work with, so I would still stick to it. It is worth it. Yeah, yeah.

Harry Duran [00:32:43]: And obviously you see news like that and to people outside the industry, you know, they think that's a reflection of what's happening. But just from the conversations I'm having and even you see feedback, I've seen some Pretty in depth LinkedIn posts about the bow. People keep throwing out the word unicorn and looking at this as like a SaaS model or a tech company. And in reality we're seeing that doesn't work. You know, it's actually about farming. It's about, you know, producing a crop and getting back to the basics. And I'm sure that the folks who've been doing this for decades on the greenhouse side, you know, would probably agree, you know, the successes here, if the model is correct. So it'd be interesting to see. I think it'll probably shake out the people who are just looking for the quick wins. But for people who are in it for the actual real reasons to solve some of these problems we have with food security, food deserts, supply chain access to food, local food Hyper local food. I think everyone who's still working on it feels like they're on the right path. I noticed that you also had some success with the startup lab recently. Can you talk a little bit about that experience?

Alexander Jaworski [00:33:47]: Yep. So actually it's old news already, but we were just able to communicate it to the outside world. So basically as a young startup, especially being 15 people at this early stage, you need some external funding. So there's no way that everything just falls into place at the beginning. So we got funding from. It's called Sexische Betidegungserschschaft, so it's a Saxonian state owned VC basically. And they gave us a little bit of funding to support the idea, to support sort of innovation coming from Saxony, where we are located. And yeah, the point where they got most excited about was someone dropped. Oh, so if we go to Mars, we could also use vertical farming there, like controlled environment. Sure, we can. We cannot grow it on sort of the surface of the Mars. We need this controlled environment. So basically if we manage to get there, it can be done. So this is what the people got most excited when we had the pitch events. So that was quite nice to see. But yet they support us, they really want to see those innovations coming also from Saxony. So I think it's going to be a good partnership and there's more to come as well. But yeah, need some further talks.

Harry Duran [00:35:03]: Well, congratulations on that. So I always like to sort of put the future forward thinking, you know, conversation because obviously a lot of people, you know, no one has the crystal ball, no one knows what's going to happen, especially with so many things changing in this industry. But let's say we're having this conversation a year from now. So it's November 7, 2025, you know, what type of conversation do you think we're having? You look back and then what would need to happen for you to be happy with the success of GreenHub.

Alexander Jaworski [00:35:31]: So with the success of GreenHub, we have a good pipeline coming up. We have bigger projects, we have new customers that we are currently talking to see really the last requirements, what do they need? So I'm super hopeful and I'm super optimistic for the upcoming year. That development is going to be great. We also have our first customer in the sort of commercial farming space. They want to use our software as well, to use it as an automation tool. So basically the second step of our business model also comes to life. So about GreenHub, I'm really positive about the industry. I also think if we Talk in a year's time, we do see smaller farms, we do see it adapted to local markets. We do see it with direct distribution models. I'm still thinking farm as a service is not that yet. I think that there is a possibility to really get that going. But it's going to be smaller farms. It's not going to be we build the next biggest vertical farm in the world. So I think this is what we're going to see. And I think also the push towards hybrid farms, I don't think it's a new thing to talk about, but use vertical farming not as a standalone version, not as an island sort of integrated into greenhouse production. For example, uses it for germination to move it transplanted into a greenhouse. When we have the energy heavy production in a vertical farm, just move it into a greenhouse where we can at least get supplemented sunlight and then just get the throughput of a greenhouse even higher. And also use the surplus heat of a verdict farm to use it in the wintertime for greenhouse. I think it makes a lot of sense to think in those structures or in this use cases. So I think this is what we're going to see and I'm going to look forward to the positive news we hopefully see on LinkedIn. We hopefully see on different news outlets. You can hopefully report with the further talks we have about those great projects. And then, yeah, I'm super optimistic.

Harry Duran [00:37:33]: That's a good feeling and I'm sure what listeners want to hear as well, you know, given what's happening. So I like to leave some time towards the end of these conversations for any thoughts you have for the industry. Like I said, you just attended VertiFarm, so you got to see firsthand what people are talking about on the ground there. But also, you know, a lot of times I just want to encourage this sense of collaboration because I think we're all working towards the same goals. So, any thoughts or comments you have about the industry from your experience so far?

Alexander Jaworski [00:38:03]: Just touching on Verde Farm, the overall sentiment was data sharing. So how can we collaborate more and more? And I do think data sharing can work on different levels. So specifically learning from the mistakes other companies did what didn't work and just be very transparent with the reasons. I think this would be a good step forward if we really start to collaborate within the industry because we've seen that there has been a lot of money being invested in the industry. It has been invested into individual companies that try to do all of it. But if we now sort of start sharing data really Start sharing the use cases. That's also what we now do with our customers. There was one prospect, not a customer yet, and he talked about a project he wanted to do. And we're like, okay, look, we do see a few red flags in the project just from the numbers you've given us, but please talk to this person because he actually wanted to do exactly what you did and the project didn't work out. So please get the information from him why it didn't work. He doesn't need to tell you all the secrets about what he wanted to do, but just get the basic information to save you a couple of hundred thousand, maybe a million on the project you want to do. And really be transparent on it. And don't always look for the biggest margin or the biggest revenue. Just really try to build those positive use cases the industry needs. Because if we elevate those use cases, then I don't know how the saying is in English, but then if the tide rises, I think all the boats sort of. I don't know how to say that.

Harry Duran [00:39:42]: A rising tide lifts all boats.

Alexander Jaworski [00:39:45]: Exactly. So I think this is what really needs to happen and companies need to be more open to talk about it. Also, what doesn't work. And don't always say, look, it's going great, everything is perfect.

Harry Duran [00:39:57]: Well, I appreciate that openness and also that sense of collaboration, because I think as we're starting to see, you know, people getting nervous with, you know, what we hear recently about Bowery, and if we're being honest, it's not going to be the last one. Right. We're going to hear something else that's going to get other people discouraged. But I think what my takeaway from this conversation and it feels like, you know, you've done the research both for your company and now helping other companies do the research, which I think is important. But also you have a sound business model and I think you've built this from the ground up. It's not something where you try to make it know your own version of a unicorn. I think you have a sound business case and you're providing value for farmers who need this help, who need this information. So I think what you're doing shows that you're moving in the right direction. So I really want to appreciate and say thanks for coming on the show and giving that perspective, especially with what's happening, you know, in Germany, and especially people probably feel like a bad taste in their mouth with what happened within Farm, but I think they start having conversations with you and your team. And I think hopefully they feel hopeful about the future.

Alexander Jaworski [00:41:01]: Thank you. Thank you for the conversation. Thank you for having me.

Harry Duran [00:41:04]: So where's the best place to connect the listeners and the viewers to learn more?

Alexander Jaworski [00:41:09]: So, our LinkedIn account, Isabel, my colleague, is doing a great job there, posting latest Updates. Also GreenUP EU, our website, is where the latest updates also get published. And the next events we go to, it's IPM in Germany. So it's a horticulture event that we have. And then, yeah, it's far in the future. But GreenTech, VER Farm, all of those events we're going to be. So. Yeah.

Harry Duran [00:41:37]: Okay. Well, hopefully I get to see you at a future event and appreciate you coming on and sharing your own story. Thanks so much, Alexander.

Alexander Jaworski [00:41:43]: Thank you.